# I Join Michael Stipe In Losing My Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 15, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146 "2007-06-15T18:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/21 "2007-06-15T21:09:13Z")
To me, and for most people I’ve talked to, becoming an atheist is more a realization than a decision. It wasn’t as much something I did as something I learned about myself. I’d say relax about it all a bit. You’re currently agnostic. That’s fine, there’s no rule saying you have to take another “step” and become atheist. You could just stay as an agnostic, lots of people do. Agnostic is a perfectly valid destination, not just an interim step to something else. It’s also a good catchall label for a lot of people who aren’t sure what they believe - that sounds like where you fit right now. Maybe one day you’ll wake up and realize that you’re really an atheist, maybe you won’t. Either way is good. If you feel like you’re missing something, look into other religions. Deism or pantheism might be a good fit, or UU or the Quakers, or something entirely different. Research and read, visit and discuss when possible. If you find something that makes you happy, there ya go. While you’re at it, spend some time thinking about what _you_ feel and believe, too. If you can become comfortable with that, then it probably won’t be as important to you to have a label to identify with. If it will make you feel better, you can join my religion (it’s very good for answering surveys, filling out forms, and running off nosy-bodies): Anti-[denominational](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=denominational) [existential](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=existentialism) [eclectic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eclectic) [zen](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zen) [agnostic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnostic). Change the words as needed to suit. I’d strongly advise against trying to go “back to your roots”, though. Do you really feel like you could ever go back to that unquestioning belief? Can you be happy pretending to believe? Didn’t think so. So relax, take it easy, and let things go a bit. Good luck on your quest! ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/22 "2007-06-15T21:34:03Z")
You guys have been reading my mind! Now that’s a possible religion I could get into. 🆒 I’ve been following along closely to everything y’all have said. I’m intently thinking about how to reply, to put forth the gravity of how I feel about all this. Plus, I’m sure you know the ridiculous tomes that I type, so please bear with me. I promise I’ll try to be less emotional than the tears (I know, who would’ve thought?) I’m typing through compels me to be. Here goes nothing. [QUOTE=Leaffan] I agree. Shed yourself of the concept that someone else, especially a supreme being, is somehow controlling your destiny. You are responsible for your own destiny. [/QUOTE] See, but that’s the difficult part. I feel like I’m losing part of myself every time I turn farther away from what I was indoctrinated to believe. > [@](#): > > Of course random things occur. People are killed for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or contract disease for inexplicable reasons. But to think that this is part of someone else’s master plan is ridiculous. I’m right on page with this. It’s one thing for sure that I believe wholeheartedly and had no problem walking away from. At least until there’s something so heinous that I do want to rail at God. > [@](#): > > Go out and enjoy life on your terms, not on someone else’s. This doesn’t mean a life of debauchery and evil: au contraire. It means, to me, that I choose the friends, the existence, the morals, and the lifestyle that I want. I can only hope. As to debauchery, I don’t ever think I partook much and I’m certainly past the age where it would interest me. Unless Johnny Depp was somehow involved. > [@](#): > > Coincidentally enough, a lot of good moral teachings can be found in the Bible, and other religious manifestos. But I choose to do the right thing because it’s the right thing, not because I fear eternal retribution from an invisible deity. You are completely correct on all counts here. There are certain passages in the bible that I find comforting and as guidance. But definitely no more than any other ‘good’ book with virtuous teachings. I’ve also embraced the ‘doing something right for the right reasons’ philosophy for quite a while now. I hated feeling like I was trying to earn Brownie points for some future awards dinner or something. Thank you for giving me one more piece to add to the puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/23 "2007-06-15T21:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=redtail23] To me, and for most people I’ve talked to, becoming an atheist is more a realization than a decision. It wasn’t as much something I did as something I learned about myself. I’d say relax about it all a bit. You’re currently agnostic. That’s fine, there’s no rule saying you have to take another “step” and become atheist. You could just stay as an agnostic, lots of people do. Agnostic is a perfectly valid destination, not just an interim step to something else. It’s also a good catchall label for a lot of people who aren’t sure what they believe - that sounds like where you fit right now. Maybe one day you’ll wake up and realize that you’re really an atheist, maybe you won’t. Either way is good. If you feel like you’re missing something, look into other religions. Deism or pantheism might be a good fit, or UU or the Quakers, or something entirely different. Research and read, visit and discuss when possible. If you find something that makes you happy, there ya go. While you’re at it, spend some time thinking about what _you_ feel and believe, too. If you can become comfortable with that, then it probably won’t be as important to you to have a label to identify with. If it will make you feel better, you can join my religion (it’s very good for answering surveys, filling out forms, and running off nosy-bodies): Anti-[denominational](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=denominational) [existential](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=existentialism) [eclectic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eclectic) [zen](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zen) [agnostic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnostic). Change the words as needed to suit. I’d strongly advise against trying to go “back to your roots”, though. Do you really feel like you could ever go back to that unquestioning belief? Can you be happy pretending to believe? Didn’t think so. So relax, take it easy, and let things go a bit. Good luck on your quest! [/QUOTE] I believe I’m a member of the multi-adjectival religion mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/24 "2007-06-15T21:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] It depends on how you really came to your disbelief. Athiesm is not a belief, it’s a conclusion. I’ve been an athiest for years, and I still read about it. Understand that it’s ok to say ‘I don’t know’, don’t feel there has to be a definite answer either way. Basically, don’t force it. Learn and decide. [/QUOTE] Well, I think the _real_ journey began when I started college (unfortunately rather late, I must add) and had my first world history class. To learn that the exact same stories I was led to believe were unique to Christianity, often were told in other religions and cultures, mostly pre-Jesus. That floored me that the Moses message was a duplicate and we’d never been taught that. Why? Who was hiding what, ya know? You’re also correct that it doesn’t have to be anything other questioning, learning more and being calm and patient. It’s just seems very hard for me. All those sermons and bad Christian rock (80s version) must’ve been powerful. Thanks much for your advice and support. Good stuff all. [QUOTE=dangermom] I guess if it was me, I would not feel able to come to any definite conclusion without doing a lot of reading on the subject. (Actually that’s pretty much how I approach anything in life.) I’d have to do a lot of investigating and thinking about the whole issue. [/QUOTE] After my initial epiphany, I devoured anything I could find. I probably read every kind of What The Bible Really Means stuff I could get my hands on. It explained a lot. Then of course there’s more websites about it then one could shake a stick at. And although my head acknowledges what I feel (know?) to be the truth, my heart rebels and claims that I was “taught better.” [QUOTE=dangermom] I wasn’t raised a fundamentalist, and no one ever planted a fear of hell in me. I do have a strong religious faith, but it isn’t of that flavor. But I said above that I would want to do a lot of reading and thought before making a decision; I do think that I would want to go into the middle ground, and find out about a lot of different beliefs. I wouldn’t want to stick with the original ‘roots’ in my family unless I was convinced that they were the correct ones. [/QUOTE] I wish I could say that. It was very firmly established, at least in my case and those who followed the same tenets. You couldn’t help but see that a lot of actions were based on that fear. I know that as a 13 year old, I prayed every day, several times, to make sure I ‘stayed forgiven.’ Because I was quite the degenerate then. Hell, I’m sure the cookie jar jailer was constantly on my thievin’ tail. :rolleyes: Also, I undoubtedly made more trips to the alter than I can count, to be certain that my salvation ‘took.’ I’m sure for anyone more aware than I, it was incredibly embarrassing. Finally, I’m convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that my families path is anything but where all I’ll ever _need_ to be again. I suppose I just thought it needed equal air time from the other end of the spectrum. :smack: Thanks so much **dangermom** for all your well thought-out suggestions. I will indeed be, I’m sure, pondering on this thread for a long time to come. [QUOTE=lowbrass] Wow, they really messed with your head. It doesn’t bother me just because the idea seems so silly to me, like a child being afraid of monsters under the bed. The idea that there’s a god who loves us, but doesn’t give us any obvious evidence of his existence, and expects _us_ to find \* him\*, and then would torture us for eternity just because we didn’t, is so nonsensical that I just can’t take it seriously. But it’s a lot easier for me because I was never indoctrinated into that mindset. [/QUOTE] It _is_ ridiculous, isn’t it? But what if you can’t shake no matter how much you try or know it doesn’t reconcile with your beliefs? Again, I’ll just say that I’m envious of anyone who was lucky enough to have this NOT imbedded in their brains. If you ever wanna swap heads, I do have red hair after all (the boxed kind counts too!)… Gracias. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/25 "2007-06-15T22:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=faithfool] I feel like I’m losing part of myself every time I turn farther away from what I was indoctrinated to believe. [/QUOTE] What you’re turning away from is an illusion. You are not losing yourself at all; in fact, when you have turned completely, you will truly discover yourself, and you will weep for joy from the power and freedom of it. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/26 "2007-06-15T22:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=Zambini57] I always heard that the phrase “losing my religion” simply meant indulging in profane language. IOW, cutting loose with a stream of curse words. Nothing to do with losing faith. [/QUOTE] Occasionally in different contexts, I’ve heard that too. For what it’s worth, I sorta like that interpretation of it. > [@](#): > > But, music lyrics have different meanings for different people, I guess. > > Far be it from me to denigrate taking a life lesson from a 12 year old rock song. Actually, the song doesn’t mean diddly to me. I just heard it as a joke one time in regards to Amy Grant and I thought it would make a more interesting title than just “Religious Dilemma.” And trust me, I only take my life lessons from ABBA. Or and sometimes That 70s Show. Yummmmm, Hyde. [QUOTE=Atomicktom] Have you looked into [deism](http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm) ? I tended towards atheism/agnosticism for a long time, but have slowly begun to embrace the idea that the wonder of creation justifies a logical leap of faith into accepting a higher power (of _some_ kind, although I disdain notions that this “creator” is within the grasp of human perception. And I certainly reject the human-centric mentality that we are his pet project). [/QUOTE] Upon my definite decision that I’d actually become an agnostic without a doubt, I looked a small bit into deism and decided that was for me also. But upon sharing my newfound sense of self with others, must seemed to think I was crazier than I’d already been diagnosed to be. However, I still see me somewhere (I think, maybe) in this category because I don’t know if you can know. You know? You’ve hit the nail on the head about our lack of comprehension if there is a higher power. Our perception still lacks very much, so agreed. > [@](#): > > I consider myself fortunate that dogmatic scripture was never forced onto me, so I had no qualms about rejecting conventional religion (although, to this day, Christians seem aghast that I am not a Christian, too). Ditto to all that. > [@](#): > > I can’t really counsel you on how you might consider abandoning fire and brimstone, then, but would simply point out that, IMHO, browbeating someone into strict obediance, with the threat of eternal damnation as the vengeful repercussion of independent thought, is surely a grotesque form of mental abuse. And, like anybody who has been abused, your healing will be a process. All true. > [@](#): > > Best of luck with that journey. I appreciate that. Thank you from the bottom fo my heart. [QUOTE=MN\_Maenad] I’d like to reiterate this. Also, my sympathies. I’ve known a number of people who’ve abandoned a cherished belief, for various reasons, and it’s often very difficult. [/QUOTE] Thank you. It does mean a lot to find that someone else understands what you’re going through. > [@](#): > > Be easy on yourself. I reiterate: it’s OK to say “I don’t know”. You don’t have to land somewhere if you’ve jumped from religion. Read a lot of books on various faiths and philosophies, see if anything clicks for you. Try to stick with the more positive ones, rather than the you’re-going-to-hell-if-you-disagree-with-me ones. I was so drawn to Unitarian Universalism in principle. Yet when I visited the church (I’m not sure that would be considered the accurate term or not, sorry), it was incredibly alien to me, like I was more at a town meeting and an interloper. They were all beyond friendly and welcoming, but I assume because of my own baggage that I couldn’t relate unless someone was condemning me. Screwed up all right. > [@](#): > > Meditate or pray on the issue, write in a journal. Let the process flow naturally, don’t rush yourself to hardcore belief/disbelief. Atheism should feel like a freedom from chains that bind, not a cold, careless, universe. I’ve tried to meditate and I feel I must be doing it wrong. There’s still some vestiges of being able to pray, but then I don’t feel worthy. And amazingly (yeah, right) I’m better able to once in a blue moon talk things out here than I’ve ever been able to keep up a journal with (or, sadly, even emails). So, all that’s to still say your encouragements are wonderful, I apologize for my unbelievably low self-esteem that creeps into my abilities to possibly put forth these ideas and a very humble thank you. Thank you **MN\_Maenad**. Your words are wise. [Edited to add: I’ll give everyone a break from me for a bit and then come back later to answer the rest. Thank you all. I’m off to listen to “Waterloo.”] ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/27 "2007-06-15T22:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] My journey to agnosticism (or possibly deism) hasn’t been one of disbelief in God, but disbelief in the church. The cruelty, intolerance and pettiness that I started seeing in the church drove me to wonder how it meshed with the Christian faith that was being taught. I am not able to say “There is no god”, but I’m also not able to say that I can believe in the god that they are showing and even sometimes teaching. So rather then gritting my teeth and turning a blind eye to the parts that I can’t believe in, I’ve been working on solidifying what actually resonates with me. Before I can join a church again, I have to know what I believe in, and what I don’t believe in. I suppose you could say that my faith is growing up. Rather then letting others TELL me what is correct/right/good, I am trying to understand what is correct/right/good. No more blindly following the crowd. [/QUOTE] This pretty well sums up my own beliefs (or lack thereof) too. There are things that I observe on a daily basis that, in my own heart, mean for sure that there is some higher power out there. But whatever that power is, I don’t think it fits into the definitions ascribed to it by the various religious factions I’ve been exposed to. I grew up a pretty hardcore Catholic, but was fortunate enough to wind up under Jesuits who told me that I needed to start thinking for myself rather than just believing what I was taught to believe. Unfortunately for them, thinking for myself meant the end of my being Catholic, but it has put me on a lengthy journey to try to figure out where my beliefs actually stand. I’ve tried to read the Bible from the beginning to see if I’d gather any inspiration from that, but I didn’t get very far. I’ve tried to get interested in learning about other religions to figure out why any one would be better than the other, but I lost interest fairly quickly when I felt that it would be unreasonable for a God to expect us to find the correct needle in the haystack. I’d say I’ve gotten to a point in the last year or so where I think it’s OK that I don’t quite know what I believe anymore. And that has been quite a struggle, believe me. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/28 "2007-06-15T22:33:25Z")
[QUOTE=faithfool] It _is_ ridiculous, isn’t it? But what if you can’t shake no matter how much you try or know it doesn’t reconcile with your beliefs? Again, I’ll just say that I’m envious of anyone who was lucky enough to have this NOT imbedded in their brains. If you ever wanna swap heads, I do have red hair after all (the boxed kind counts too!)… Gracias. [/QUOTE] What’s so sinister about the whole thing is that it plays to what instinctively is the most terrifying thing imaginable. I’ve certainly had the occasional random thought of “What if it really IS true?” and it’s a pretty scary thought. So I can’t even imagine what it’s like to have this ingrained into your psyche at an impressionable age. I can really sympathize with that. But change is always uncomfortable, so maybe the discomfort will fade over time. I hope you find your answer. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/29 "2007-06-15T22:43:40Z")
FaithFool… …have not read the whole tread yet but… I lost my religion YEARS ago…but I still have faith… Faith that humans are basically cool and will figure things out. Faith that my inner voices and feeling and intuitions will lead me to somewhat of a meaningful coexistence with fellow beings…of all races, species or kingdoms… and a faith that the answers are apparent, if we seek them out. Do I believe in god…hmmmm not really, but i do believe in a group conscience… You, girl, have shown me that some of us CAN think beyond ourselves… thanks, daniel…aka tsfr ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/30 "2007-06-15T22:48:07Z")
> [@](#): > > If it will make you feel better, you can join my religion (it’s very good for answering surveys, filling out forms, and running off nosy-bodies): \*\*Anti-denominational existential eclectic zen agnostic. \*\* Change the words as needed to suit. I’ll add one to your outfit: Anti-denominational, existenial, eclectic zen, agnostic [Humanist](http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/manifesto1.php) with a dash of kung-fu movies, Jane Austen and fortune cookie advice. I ‘get’ most of my religion during the drive by of the Church Marquee signs. I figure it is summing up whatever the Big Talk is that week anyway and it lets me sleep in. No Guilt Except for destroying the ozone in my SUV. But, I can live with that. All religious services, IMHO, would be made so much more entertaining if there were mandatory kung fu fighting going on. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/31 "2007-06-15T23:13:43Z")
I am not and have never been a fundamentalist, but from what I understand, the thing about fundamentalism that appeals to some people is the clear boundaries, the definite answers, the fact that it doesn’t leave room for doubts or questioning. And it sounds like you’ve outgrown that. Plenty of people have been about where you are now, and they’ve ended up in many different places—atheism, agnosticism, deism, non-religious spirituality, liberal Christianity, a more open evangelical Christianity, etc., etc. Some of them have written books about their spiritual journeys, and you may (or may not) find it useful to look into them. I agree with what **Leaffan** said: > [@](#): > > Shed yourself of the concept that someone else, especially a supreme being, is somehow controlling your destiny. You are responsible for your own destiny. This point of veiw is compatible with both religion and atheism. The God I believe in wants you to “grow up” and take responsibility for your own life. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/32 "2007-06-16T00:33:06Z")
Levity is a good thing. So is levitating too, but I’m not sure if those partaking (hee) of TM are still taking new members. 🙂 [QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] My journey to agnosticism (or possibly deism) hasn’t been one of disbelief in God, but disbelief in the church. The cruelty, intolerance and pettiness that I started seeing in the church drove me to wonder how it meshed with the Christian faith that was being taught. I am not able to say “There is no god”, but I’m also not able to say that I can believe in the god that they are showing and even sometimes teaching. [/QUOTE] I don’t think I have any truck with the church, for mine is more biblically centered. Growing up with literalism, that’s the thing that reads as cross-purpose to what I know to be right and true, and much different, now versus before. But overall, we’re on the same page with the meshing, or lack thereof. > [@](#): > > So rather then gritting my teeth and turning a blind eye to the parts that I can’t believe in, I’ve been working on solidifying what actually resonates with me. Before I can join a church again, I have to know what I believe in, and what I don’t believe in. The more and more that I try this, I get that sneaky feeling I’m attempting to cherry pick. Or mix-and-match. Whatever way someone would phrase the idea of taking the best parts of each religion that you choose, because you hold those beliefs to be correct, and wrapping them all up together. I really don’t mind if others (like my harshest critic, my mother) disapprove, it’s my own terror that I’m doing something inherently wrong that’s almost insurmountable to me. > [@](#): > > I suppose you could say that my faith is growing up. Rather then letting others TELL me what is correct/right/good, I am trying to understand what is correct/right/good. No more blindly following the crowd. That’s a perfect way of expressing this process. Unfortunately, when you’re told of the infallibility of your God and His decisions at a young (well, if 13 is considered to be so), turning off your brain and like a lemming trailing after the unattainable… peace. Least that’s how it’s been for me, no matter what path I’ve been on. Thank you for your kind guidance. More good information to mull over. [QUOTE=fetus] Believers often say that your “convictions”–in your case, waking up in a state of panic about the fate of your ever-lovin’ soul–are proof that God is within us and is trying to save us. But (IMO) they’re actually just products of our upbringing: in our society we’re fed all of this saviors-and-demons crap at a very impressionable age, and it puts a stamp on our consciousness that we can’t get rid of. The fact that something inside you screams when you turn away from faith is no accident; but the something inside you is your culture, not an omnipresent being. [/QUOTE] My significant other and I have had a similar discussion. That the bible (and I guess the church or certain dogma) has built in ways of deflecting almost any negative situation. The example you’ve given of what happens for me some nights is exactly square on. My mother would argue that it’s the Holy Spirit waging an increasingly losing battle (due to my heart being hardened and all) to save my soul. If this ever _stops_ bothering me, then instead of it being a good thing that I’m no longer terrorized, it’s bad for God has finally given up and I’m sunk. Yeah, dreaming is so fun! > [@](#): > > One doesn’t. It’s as simple as that. I mean, how do you even know Satan exists? Because a bunch of _humans_ told you. Mortals. Just like you and me. The only extra qualification they have is that they’ve voluntarily had the same ideas hammered into their heads extra hard. What the fuck do a bunch of mortals know about eternity? Agnostic ideology would tend to be that if you can’t know definitely about God, that the same principle would apply to Satan. Right? Regardless, I’ve for a long time put my faith in the fact that the bible was written by men, therefore all of its outlying oral traditions (like heaven and hell) would be the same also. Sadly, it’s only pertaining to this issue that I can’t do a complete override. Like a maladjusted interlude that screams “Hello! The Devil is gonna getcha and make you burn forever! No soup for you!!” while you happily attend an Infidels conference. You can tell that I _hate_ this. > [@](#): > > (Granted, I was raised Jewish and there isn’t as much of an emphasis on the eternal hellfire stuff in that religion. Actually, I was 18 before I found out that there was even a Hell in Jewish belief.) I always wanted to marry a ‘converted’ Jew back in my I’m-gonna-be-a-missionary-and-save-the-inner-city days. Of course, now I’ve comprehended how misguided, anti-semantic and just plain wrong that was. But I still love to hear prays in Hebrew. They’re beautiful. And thank you **fetus** for taking the time to expel one more little bit of darkness from my psyche. Sometimes _any_ light makes the night a tad more tolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/33 "2007-06-16T00:57:23Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Sadly, it’s only pertaining to this issue that I can’t do a complete override. Might as well say that you can’t get your wisdom teeth pulled out when it’s time. Sure you can–it’s just gonna be a hell of an ordeal. That’s how reversing the beliefs your society has hammered into your head continuously for decades works. It’s a hell of an ordeal to “override” your aversion to eating cat, too, but if you’re ever held captive in Vietnam (admittedly, this is less likely for an American man than it used to be) you may rely on your ability to do that to survive. > [@faithfool](#): > > anti-semantic Assuming you weren’t anti-meaning, you probably wanted to say “anti-Semitic” (with a capital S) there. And you’re welcome! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/34 "2007-06-16T00:59:46Z")
Lots of post parsing still ahead, so please beware! In these sorts of serious discussions, I can’t do anything less because it feels disrespectful to me and these wonderful people are being so kind and helpful. If this is a peeve of yours, I advise you to just skip me then on general principles. 🆒 [QUOTE=tomndebb] You can only believe what you can believe. On the other hand, you can stick all sorts of labels on what you believe or how you express your belief. [/QUOTE] When I first got married, I was told a corollary to this; You can only do as good as you can do. Simple as that may be, it was a complete revelation. I was taught that you can _always_ do better and anything that wasn’t up to snuff meant you weren’t trying hard enough. Hence I knew that I was a goner for not making to the pearly gates. And labels just help me compartmentalize when I normally stay so freakin’ confused. It’s silly, but anything that makes me somewhat closer to functional is my friend. 🙂 > [@](#): > > It sounds to me that you already know what you do (or do not) believe and you are just wrestling with labels. I’d say ignore the labels. Unless you have a requirement to identify yourself as one thing or another to some person or group, then just ponder what you do believe (without trying to wrap all the beliefs in a bundle with a nametag), and find whatever level of comfort you can from that. Very wise indeed. Perhaps that should be my meditation (if I can ever get it to work for me) mantra. “No label required!” I guess the last part is what’s important. > [@](#): > > If there are beliefs that you still hold that appear to contradict each other, then you might want to spend some time seeking help in books or lectures that deal with those issues. (I’m guessing going to a spiritual counsellor would be right out :). ) But realize that most people hold contradictory beliefs on some issues. It is a big, exciting, terrifying, confusing world and I am not aware of anyone who truly understands it. Whew, a spiritual counselor (howza about an advisor – just look into my crystal ball) is probably out of the question for the moment, since I’m struggling with another bout of agoraphobia. Maybe I could find one online? And cognitively processing that the rest of the world hasn’t concurred this problem either should be a comfort that I remember and cling to. Thank you **tom** for the reminder. I hope it’s within my grasp to get that through my short-circuited head. [QUOTE=redtail23] To me, and for most people I’ve talked to, becoming an atheist is more a realization than a decision. It wasn’t as much something I did as something I learned about myself. I’d say relax about it all a bit. [/QUOTE] You’re right. Not being uptight about this is definitely something I need to learn not to do. _Really_ need to learn. > [@](#): > > You’re currently agnostic. That’s fine, there’s no rule saying you have to take another “step” and become atheist. You could just stay as an agnostic, lots of people do. Agnostic is a perfectly valid destination, not just an interim step to something else. It’s also a good catchall label for a lot of people who aren’t sure what they believe - that sounds like where you fit right now. I apologize if it sounded like I was saying that being an agnostic in and of itself wasn’t good enough. It is. Where I meant to head with that is I still feel like something isn’t… erm, uh, let’s see, not. quite. right. with me. And not in the sense that I have mental problems either. I’m woefully inadequate at explaining stuff like that, but there it is. Also, I agree that it’s the right fit for me now. I’d just like a little less displacement. > [@](#): > > Maybe one day you’ll wake up and realize that you’re really an atheist, maybe you won’t. Either way is good. > > If you feel like you’re missing something, look into other religions. Deism or pantheism might be a good fit, or UU or the Quakers, or something entirely different. Research and read, visit and discuss when possible. If you find something that makes you happy, there ya go. Oh I _do_ want to be happy. (I sound like freakin’ Dorothy.) Like I mentioned up thread though, everything I’ve tried thus far, seems off kilter. I really, really wanted to be a UU, because it would be similar to finding the Mother Ship. However, I just wasn’t getting ‘it.’ I’m sure there’s more that I’ve got to explore, but I’m afraid whether or not it’ll fill the void hinges on previous illogical religious instruction. If my mind insists on boogie men and streets of gold no matter my de-programming attempts, I’ll be damned if I know how to stop that shit. An anti-cultist might help. > [@](#): > > While you’re at it, spend some time thinking about what _you_ feel and believe, too. If you can become comfortable with that, then it probably won’t be as important to you to have a label to identify with. True dat. > [@](#): > > If it will make you feel better, you can join my religion (it’s very good for answering surveys, filling out forms, and running off nosy-bodies): Anti-[denominational](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=denominational) [existential](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=existentialism) [eclectic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eclectic) [zen](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zen) [agnostic](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnostic). Change the words as needed to suit. Sounds good. But do you have cookies at the meetings? And volleyball, there’s got to be mucho volleyball. > [@](#): > > I’d strongly advise against trying to go “back to your roots”, though. Do you really feel like you could ever go back to that unquestioning belief? Can you be happy pretending to believe? Didn’t think so. I’m clueless as to why I even brought that into the picture. I could never return to a system that demonizes other religions, gay people, feminism and embraces intolerance in almost every form. I wouldn’t ever be even close to content. > [@](#): > > So relax, take it easy, and let things go a bit. Good luck on your quest! Thank you for everything so much **redtail**. I knew that took an extensive amount of time to think through and compose. I really appreciate all the help and consideration. I’m grateful. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/35 "2007-06-16T01:56:33Z")
For several years now, I’ve basically considered myself to be an Agnostic Apathetic. Meaning, I don’t know, and I don’t care. Even if there IS some daddy-god out there ready to throw me into Hell for eternity for not believing in his son, I don’t really care. Just because an entity can effectively bully you doesn’t mean that entity deserves worship. I don’t know if there is a God, and if there is, I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/36 "2007-06-16T02:15:23Z")
I haven’t really got much to say, and I don’t really want to give any \*specific \* advice in case i’m wrong (which is annoyingly likely 😉 ). So i’ll just say don’t focus too much on where you might be going or what an “end” point might be. There’s no real end; people have gone from religious to athiest to a different religion to the original one but at a different level. Think about where you’re at now, what’s good about that, what’s bad, and so on. As for not being yourself - well, it’s ok to let parts of yourself change. That’s what growing as a person is all about. If you’re feeling guilty about letting parts of yourself go even though you don’t like them that much - that’s fine. You’re allowed to miss it, even if you don’t really miss it (if you get what I mean). Everyone can feel that kind of “wrong” guilt sometimes. Just remember that the person you are now is a person that you’ve made yourself; a result of your own choices, and not anyone else’s. What type of person you end up being is up to you; so if you approach it honestly and with an open mind, you’ll know who you are. And ((hugs)) for what you’re going through. Whatever you find yourself being, I hope you’re happy, and I hope the journey isn’t too bad. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/37 "2007-06-16T02:55:49Z")
Hey, **faithfool**. I’ve often read your posts and thought about what you’ve written. This one rings very true for me, because I have gone through and am still going through a similar journey. I don’t know that I can give advice, but I thought I’d share a little of what I’ve seen. I was raised unchurched. My mother was turned off church, but not religion, by an overzealous mother. My father was turned off both by the Baptist revivals he was dragged to as a child. He mentioned that for weeks afterward, he would wait for the world to end, just as the preacher had promised, and that he was terrified of being damned to Hell. But after waiting and waiting, after promise and promise, it never came. His faith withered on the vine. So, the only time I saw the inside of a church was if we were visiting my maternal grandmother or for a funeral or a wedding. I went with friends a couple of times and once got sucked into a Baptist congregation for about three months (my poor parents!), but sloth and sleeping in got the better of me. I was never indoctrinated, and my parents, bless them, did their best to answer my questions as honestly as they could. During my teen years, there were times when I wondered if maybe there really was no God. Maybe everyone who believed in God was just whistling as they walked past the graveyard, so to speak. During my college years, I was fairly cynical, blaming religion for all the bad habits of humanity and seeing precious little good in it. During my late twenties and into my thirties, I’ve become more curious than anything else. What do people believe? Why do they believe it? What consequences does it have? Are people better or worse off for their beliefs? Is society as a whole better or worse off? I have friends who are atheists, some who are Orthodox Christian, many who are some flavor of Pagan, and I have some acquaintances who round out my world by bringing Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and other beliefs with them. I have still wavered, over the years, between being agnostic and atheistic. I would like to believe that there is A Plan, that we all have a role, and that no matter how small that role is, it is still crucial in some manner. I cannot accept the idea of eternal damnation for any reason - no, not even the child molesters, serial killers, or whoever killed the last dodo or cut down the last tree on Easter Island. Yet, as much as I would _like_ to believe one thing or another, my rational mind points out the flaws with each of these ideas until I simply cannot invest myself in them. I can recognize that nearly all religions have a core of parallel truths: that love is better than hate, kindness is better than cruelty, that service to one another is better than isolation, and that devotion to some _mystery_ of love, in its truest, most passionate, most spiritual sense, can make us more fully ourselves and transform the world around us. About seven years ago, I attended a UU service. Meh. Not for me. Nice people, but just not what I was looking for. A lot happened in the following four years. When I moved back to my current town, I went to a different UU church and attended a service there. Bam! I’m home. The services resonate with me. There are precious few answers, but many, many questions. The size of the congregation is just right for me. In the three years that I’ve been with my church - which, btw, completely supports searching, questioning, answering, and wondering - I’ve come to realize that I’m only at the beginning of my search. I’ve also come to understand that this community is vital to my own humanity. Here’s why (and it’s not religious at all): All primates, including humans, live in some form of community. The size of that community is directly correlated with brain size. Smaller the brain, the smaller the community. The size of the human brain indicates that our most appropriately sized communities range from 100 to 150 people. More than that, and the person experiences stress from the complexity of social bonds, or the person simply stops recognizing other people as human. Less than that, and the person, perhaps, craves more human contact. It’s my theory, at this point, that religion gives us the structure that allows us to live in groups significantly larger than 150 individuals, and it provides answers to questions that only humans ask and in a way that allows our curiously structured brains to grasp and find comfort in. It’s an imperfect system. In a very large society, anonymity is the rule, rather than the exception, and the lovingkindness of most religions is drowned in the stress of an increasingly anonymous, isolated world. Religions end up competing in much the same way species do, and the ones that succeed are not necessarily the ones that answer questions the best or provide the most comfort. If there is A Plan, I can’t help but think it’s more of an experiment. Given what we are and what we have, can we overcome our flaws and live by the best rules we have created for ourselves? Can we make our world the sort of place where love is preferred to hate, kindness to cruelty, and service to isolation? I think if we can, we will have solved that mystery. At that point, whether or not God exists is rather moot. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/38 "2007-06-16T05:57:26Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] What you’re turning away from is an illusion. You are not losing yourself at all; in fact, when you have turned completely, you will truly discover yourself, and you will weep for joy from the power and freedom of it. [/QUOTE] Thank you **Cervaise**. I can only fervently wish this is true. Why, I’ll stake my faith on it. 😉 [QUOTE=Asimovian] This pretty well sums up my own beliefs (or lack thereof) too. There are things that I observe on a daily basis that, in my own heart, mean for sure that there is some higher power out there. But whatever that power is, I don’t think it fits into the definitions ascribed to it by the various religious factions I’ve been exposed to. [/QUOTE] That’s been my very same thoughts sometimes too and then the obvious flip side of how could God (in the universal sense) _do_ that!?! > [@](#): > > I grew up a pretty hardcore Catholic, but was fortunate enough to wind up under Jesuits who told me that I needed to start thinking for myself rather than just believing what I was taught to believe. Unfortunately for them, thinking for myself meant the end of my being Catholic, but it has put me on a lengthy journey to try to figure out where my beliefs actually stand. Now that’s a direction I’ve never even considered. Not because I have any malace towards Catholics (for some of my best…), but just because it would be so foreign from what I know. However, I have ventured as far as at least checking out some denominations that use intercession, so the structure of it is appealing. Anything seems less emotion driven than being (what amounts to) Pentecostal. > [@](#): > > I’ve tried to read the Bible from the beginning to see if I’d gather any inspiration from that, but I didn’t get very far. I’ve tried to get interested in learning about other religions to figure out why any one would be better than the other, but I lost interest fairly quickly when I felt that it would be unreasonable for a God to expect us to find the correct needle in the haystack. Can I get an amen? 😛 I have entertained that question for the last several years… how do we know for sure? If I’d have been born in China, I’d be a Buddhist that believes as surely in that choice as Christians do in the US. Same goes for anywhere or anyone. If they’re so certain, whose to say? > [@](#): > > I’d say I’ve gotten to a point in the last year or so where I think it’s OK that I don’t quite know what I believe anymore. And that has been quite a struggle, believe me. From your lips to Whoever’s ears. Sometimes I think I desire that more than being mentally healthy. Well, almost. Thanks for your thoughts **Asimovian**. You’re one of many Dopers that I’ve greatly admired and this post just cements how good my opinion could be, just as long as my aim doesn’t include myself. [QUOTE=lowbrass] What’s so sinister about the whole thing is that it plays to what instinctively is the most terrifying thing imaginable. I’ve certainly had the occasional random thought of “What if it really IS true?” and it’s a pretty scary thought. So I can’t even imagine what it’s like to have this ingrained into your psyche at an impressionable age. I can really sympathize with that. But change is always uncomfortable, so maybe the discomfort will fade over time. I hope you find your answer. [/QUOTE] Hey l **owbrass** is back! Thanks for stopping by again to share empathetic words. Those are always a blessing. Yeah, if I never had another one of those _things_ again, the others have still already filled an eternity (heh) in their place. But it does indeed fucking suck. I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me over this, because I honestly try to view as “Why not me?” and simply keep the goal of dealing at the fore. The nightmares though (the therapists tell me they’re really “night terrors,” probably mostly because there really doesn’t seem to be a dream proceeding them, just darkness) are almost heart stopping. It’s lessened over time and upon occasion, I’ve rolled over and told myself it wasn’t any big deal if the handbasket was waiting, and kind of fitfully fell asleep. Hey, any improvement, right? 🙂 And thank you again. All this encouragement is nourishing my very worn out soul. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/39 "2007-06-23T17:40:29Z")
One of the great awakenings of my life was when I read Twain’s religious writings. It expressed my own not only better than I could but in plain English 60 years before I was born. I’ve spoken before of the consolation of atheism. While it denies an afterlife reunion with your loved ones (a reunion the Bible itself seems to doubt- Jesus himself says there’s no marriage up there) and takes away an Emergency Escape valve that only works a minority of the time anyway, by factoring out the supernatural there’s actually a consolation when it comes to “why bad shit happens”. That a 93 year old woman [burned to death](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8681165&postcount=34) after a long life in which she helped many and hurt no one while numerous evil people died peacefully in their beds is because her skirt was caught in the heater- nothing more elaborate. It is not God’s displeasure when I had a freak accident amongst the Eloi that [totalled my new truck](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6402841&postcount=184) but because I was in the wrong place/wrong time and was hit by a flipper of the Universal Pinball Machine for no real reason- no reason to be mad about it beyond the fact I was in an accident and damaged my new truck. There is enormous consolation in this and in addition to making more sense logically it takes out the whole “Why did God answer her prayers but not mine?” nonsense that has made so many people (including folks I’ve loved) nuts and embittered trying to figure it out. (My mother’s dissertation on why Hagar was the character in the Bible she most sympathized with comes to mind- it was over this very fact.) > [@](#): > > Mark Twain > [quoted by A. B. Paine in [Chapter 295 of his 1912 biography of his friend/employer] > ([http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/twain/mark/paine/chapter295.html](http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/twain/mark/paine/chapter295.html)) {slightly abridged by me with favorite sentences highlighted but not modified or edited}] > > I believe in God the Almighty. > > I do not believe He has ever sent a message to man by anybody, or delivered one to him by word of mouth, or made Himself visible to mortal eyes at any time in any place. > > I believe that the Old and New Testaments were imagined and written by man, and that no line in them was authorized by God, much less inspired by Him. > … > > I do not believe in special providences. I believe that the universe is governed by strict and immutable laws: _If one man’s family is swept away by a pestilence and another man’s spared it is only the law working: God is not interfering in that small matter, either against the one man or in favor of the other._ > > I cannot see how eternal punishment hereafter could accomplish any good end, therefore I am not able to believe in it. To chasten a man in order to perfect him might be reasonable enough; to annihilate him when he shall have proved himself incapable of reaching perfection might be reasonable enough; but to roast him forever for the mere satisfaction of seeing him roast would not be reasonable… > > There may be a hereafter and there may not be. I am wholly indifferent about it. If I am appointed to live again I feel sure it will be for some more sane and useful purpose than to flounder about for ages in a lake of fire and brimstone for having violated a confusion of ill-defined and contradictory rules said (but not evidenced) to be of divine institution. If annihilation is to follow death I shall not be aware of the annihilation, and therefore shall not care a straw about it. > > _I believe that the world’s moral laws are the outcome of the world’s experience. It needed no God to come down out of heaven to tell men that murder and theft and the other immoralities were bad, both for the individual who commits them and for society which suffers from them._ > > If I break all these moral laws I cannot see how I injure God by it, for He is beyond the reach of injury from me—I could as easily injure a planet by throwing mud at it. It seems to me that my misconduct could only injure me and other men. I cannot benefit God by obeying these moral laws—I could as easily benefit the planet by withholding my mud. … Consequently I do not see why I should be either punished or rewarded hereafter for the deeds I do here. > > I would not interfere with any one’s religion, either to strengthen it or to weaken it.\* I am not able to believe one’s religion can affect his hereafter one way or the other, no matter what that religion maybe. But it may easily be a great comfort to him in this life hence it is a valuable possession to him.\* ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146/40 "2007-06-23T18:28:31Z")
Hey, **faithfool**. I’ve been where you are, though my time in agnosticville was pretty short. I don’t have any great advice. The only thing I can say is look at yourself, who you are, how you treat others. Be empathetic (something I know that you excel at already) and kind (ditto). You can be Christ-like without ever being Christian. I’m prone to anxiety and irrational fears. It doesn’t really matter what the truth is of the things I’m afraid of; it just matters that I’m afraid. The only thing that drives back the fear is living _fiercely_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-join-michael-stipe-in-losing-my-religion/408146.md?page=3)