# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/181 "2016-11-16T19:32:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Maybe I’m just missing something, **Ravenman** , but I don’t see the ‘donor state’ argument being the _motivation_ for secession, so much as a data point for evaluating the likely success of going it alone. The front page of the Yes California website dives directly in to the donor state argument: > [@](#): > > In our view, the United States of America represents so many things that conflict with Californian values, and our continued statehood means California will continue subsidizing the other states to our own detriment, and to the detriment of our children. > > Although charity is part of our culture, when you consider that California’s infrastructure is falling apart, our public schools are ranked among the worst in the entire country, we have the highest number of homeless persons living without shelter and other basic necessities, poverty rates remain high, income inequality continues to expand, and we must often borrow money from the future to provide services for today, now is not the time for charity. > > However, this independence referendum is about more than California subsidizing other states of this country. I suppose one can read that in different ways, but I would say that it means that the donor state issue is on the very short list of reasons why California should break off from the rest of the U.S. > [@](#): > > California isn’t a donor state because a bunch of billionaires happen to live there, but because it’s an economically productive state that has _produced_ a goodly number of billionaires, but not just that: overall, it’s got a very economically productive work force across the board. I’m not totally sure I’m reading your point correctly, but it sounds like you’re saying that economic activity in general (which produce wealth) is the prime reason why tax collections from California are so high, as opposed to collections from income taxes on more wealthy people. Am I following your point? If so, I don’t think this is right. In any given year, roughly $250 billion in Federal income taxes and payroll taxes are collected from Californians. Somewhere around $40 billion in business taxes are collected. Then there’s a several billion in miscellaneous estate, excise, and other taxes. > [@](#): > > Mississippi, by comparison, is poor in large part because it’s the sort of low-tax, low-services haven that does very little to create an economically productive citizenry. > > IOW, I think California can make a good argument that its being a donor state isn’t just happenstance involving rich people and retirees. Are you talking about low state tax, low state services leading to poor economic performance? That may be the underlying reason for not being a wealthy state – which is highly arguable – but I don’t think that has very much to do with the fact that many people retire in Mississippi, that this leads to inflows of various mandatory programs, and that fewer people pay high rates of income taxes due to residents having lower incomes generally. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/182 "2016-11-16T21:36:55Z")
Even if the feds are reluctant to send soldiers into Sacramento and quash the rebellion the government need only take a few actions that will very quickly lead to California’s surrender. 1. Naval blockade of all ports. 2. Cut off all water that flows into California, especially the Colorado. 3. Cut off all power lines into California, remember the rolling blackouts? You ain’t seen nothing yet. 4. Cut all internet lines to/from California. economic activity would grind to a halt and the death toll would be in the millions without ever firing a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/183 "2016-11-16T21:49:25Z")
California is best suited of all the states to live as its own nation. But I have to say as a born(Palo Alto) and bred(Los Angeles) Californian, I see myself much more as an American citizen than a citizen of California. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/184 "2016-11-17T04:51:01Z")
**Nema98** Please explain to me how California is the best suited of all the states to exist as an independent nation. California is hugely dependant on water from out of state. What happens when that gets shut off? What happens when Calfornia is physically cut out of the national power grid? What happens when California is cut out of the national communications network? I ain’t sayin it isn’t possible for California to be independent, but California needs to look a little deeper into the reasons for secession, that have been posted most in these forums anyway, to truly discover what they get for those billions in taxes and how they got what they have. I wouldn’t want to live in post-secession California. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/185 "2016-11-17T05:57:42Z")
I think we’re seeing the left’s version of sovereign citizens. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/186 "2016-11-17T06:23:28Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You don’t think that a huge, historical event who’s historical precedent prompted a war that killed more Americans than any other war in history and which draws into question the ability of the US to even function as a country might prompt some legislative changes to citizenship? > > And especially you don’t think that a US congress that just got told ‘fuck you, we’re taking our ball and going home’ by California at the same time as 53 votes that used to belong to California suddenly turned pro-US-not-including-CA might not be entirely friendly to CA? > > I don’t know what scenario you’re envisioning, but it really bears little relation to reality. I think California would be only one of nearly 200 other countries that US citizens might go to work or to live and give birth in, and expect to be able to pass on their US citizenship to their children. I think taking away that right from all of them just because the US was peeved at California would be an improbable overreaction. I think taking away that right solely from US citizens who lived or went to live in California might be unconstitutional and even if it wasn’t, it still seems like a petty and meaningless gesture that wouldn’t be worth the trouble. Especially as any pregnant US citizen living in California could easily just circumvent it by going back to the US to give birth. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/187 "2016-11-17T07:32:15Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I already feel better by just signing up and pledging to support them. I’m hoping this comes to be. I know this may never happen, but just the thought of standing in the Republic of California and laughing at the 49 states of America gives me quite a rush. > > [http://www.yescalifornia.org/](http://www.yescalifornia.org/) Like all the other 49 states, regardless of how they wish to call themselves, California is already a republic. If you happen to be in California now and also happen to be standing, you are, in fact, standing in the Republic of California. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/188 "2016-11-17T14:10:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > A year ago, I would have been against this movement, saying that keeping the Union together was as important now as in Lincoln’s time. But now, I’m having second thoughts. And the worldwide trend seems to be isolation and separation, not togetherness. Going with the trend is not always, or even often, the wise decision. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/189 "2016-11-17T14:32:45Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I think California would be only one of nearly 200 other countries that US citizens might go to work or to live and give birth in, and expect to be able to pass on their US citizenship to their children. None of the other nearly 200 countries have an existing population that’s almost entirely current US citizens. There’s a big difference between a handful of US expats in Monaco having kids who remain citizens and an entire country who’s kids are automatically US citizens forever. Someone from the US going to another country and keeping citizenship is different than a country splitting off from the US and expecting all of its citizens to keep US citizenship. > [@](#): > > I think taking away that right from all of them just because the US was peeved at California would be an improbable overreaction. I think taking away that right solely from US citizens who lived or went to live in California might be unconstitutional and even if it wasn’t, I think that letting Californians secede but also keep all of the benefits of US citizenship is much, much more improbable. You Calexit guys really seem to think that you can leave the US and keep all of the benefits without any of the obligations, and the world just doesn’t work that way. And what part of the constitution, exactly, would not allowing citizens of a foreign country that removed itself from the US to keep US Citizenship violate? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/190 "2016-11-17T14:40:27Z")
Any CalExit plan that assumes dual-US citizenship or an automatic free trade agreement with the US is many things, but “realistic”, “likely”, and “possible”? Not at all. The US citizenry won’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/191 "2016-11-17T18:31:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Like all the other 49 states, regardless of how they wish to call themselves, California is already a republic. If you happen to be in California now and also happen to be standing, you are, in fact, standing in the Republic of California. So close. There was an attempt to create the California Republic in 1846, but it didn’t last very long. > **[California Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic)** > > The California Republic (Spanish: República de California), or Bear Flag Republic, was an unrecognized breakaway state from Mexico, that for 25 days in 1846 militarily controlled an area north of San Francisco, in and around what is now Sonoma County in California. > In June 1846, thirty-three American immigrants in Alta California who had entered without official permission rebelled against the Mexican department's\[notes 1\] government. Among their grievances were that they had not been allowe... Currently, you would be standing in the republic of California, as well as the State of California. > **[Visiting | www.ca.gov](https://www.ca.gov/Visiting/)** > > State of California ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/192 "2016-11-17T18:41:49Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Any CalExit plan that assumes dual-US citizenship or an automatic free trade agreement with the US is many things, but “realistic”, “likely”, and “possible”? Not at all. The US citizenry won’t allow it. No kidding. Just think about Social Security. “The law says that people who live a California will continue to receive Social Security after we declare independence!” Now, if you’re in the other 49 states, and you realize that you can cut off god-knows how many Californians from Social Security and save billions of dollars that can be used to shore up the system for Real Americans, that law is going to change in a New York minute. What, are you going to have your California Senators filibuster that bill? Oh, riiiight… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/193 "2016-11-17T19:04:22Z")
I think Californians that want to split from the rest of the nation would be well-served to study [these two maps from the NYTimes](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/16/us/politics/the-two-americas-of-2016.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![riffraffselbow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@riffraffselbow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/riffraffselbow)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/194 "2016-11-17T20:20:19Z")
I’m in favor of a CalExit, but only in the sense that I’m in favor of the dissolution of the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/195 "2016-11-17T20:43:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Now, if you’re in the other 49 states, and you realize that you can cut off god-knows how many Californians from Social Security and save billions of dollars that can be used to shore up the system for Real Americans, that law is going to change in a New York minute. This would be another argument in favor of revoking citizenship, BTW - currently a US citizen can collect social security while in a foreign country, but a non-citizen in a foreign country has a tight time limit (IIRC it’s 6 months, then need to spend at least 30 days in the US to reactivate it). If you tell people that they have to convert to New California citizenship if they live there, you can cut HUGE expenses out of the social security program without actually modifying it in the least. OTOH, if Californians are staying US citizens, then they’ll be on the hook for US income tax and social security tax, and if Californian banks don’t help collect it they won’t be able to transfer money to the US, which basically shuts them down (that’s all existing law, no new laws needed). I think the Calexit people are thinking that they get to leave, do their own thing, but keep all of the benefits of being in the US. But if you’re a separate country, most of the benefits of being in the US require treaties, that the now-redder US will be disinclined to give to New California without getting something good in return. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/196 "2016-11-17T20:55:43Z")
And revoking citizenship isn’t strictly necessary, but I would tend to think it would happen. All the remaining 49 states would need to do is pass a law saying, “US citizens abroad can continue to receive Social Security unless you’re also a New California resident.” In that way, the person could keep their citizenship and not receive Social Security. Totally agree that the vast majority of claims for Calexit are “cake and eat it too” nonsense that in the case of Brexit were pretty obvious falsehoods. Fool me once… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/197 "2016-11-17T21:11:06Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > This would be another argument in favor of revoking citizenship, BTW - currently a US citizen can collect social security while in a foreign country, but a non-citizen in a foreign country has a tight time limit (IIRC it’s 6 months, then need to spend at least 30 days in the US to reactivate it). If you tell people that they have to convert to New California citizenship if they live there, you can cut HUGE expenses out of the social security program without actually modifying it in the least. OTOH, if Californians are staying US citizens, then they’ll be on the hook for US income tax and social security tax, and if Californian banks don’t help collect it they won’t be able to transfer money to the US, which basically shuts them down (that’s all existing law, no new laws needed). > > I think the Calexit people are thinking that they get to leave, do their own thing, but keep all of the benefits of being in the US. But if you’re a separate country, most of the benefits of being in the US require treaties, that the now-redder US will be disinclined to give to New California without getting something good in return. Indeed. The Red part of the Now Redder USA would be disinclined to help those elitist Californians. The abandoned Blue part would be\* really\* pissed at them… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/198 "2016-11-17T22:32:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > So close. There was an attempt to create the California Republic in 1846, but it didn’t last very long. > > [California Republic - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic) > Currently, you would be standing in the republic of California, as well as the State of California. > > [http://www.ca.gov/Visiting](http://www.ca.gov/Visiting) Read the US constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/199 "2016-11-18T01:15:35Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > this just shows how impulsive, immature, and poorly thought out this “movement” is. “We’re going to leave the union! but somehow keep our US citizenship! And… uh… take the other states we need with us!” > > “Yes California” should really be titled “California doesn’t like you so we’re talking our bat and ball and leaving.” > > all this election has shown is that as a society, we are collectively a horrendously _ugly_ people. we just take turns at being the ugliest from time to time. Once again, this referendum has been in the works since way before the maggot entered the primaries. His winning only points out a flaw in the fabric of this country. His winning is but one reason to support the referendum, not necessarily the primary one. Citizenship. You won’t LOSE your US citizenship if you have it after the vote and the vote is to leave. You won’t lose it and it can’t be taken from you. Hence the dual citizenship. California supports a large and diverse economy and the highest economic production of all the states. If California were a country, it would rank around tenth in the value of goods and services produced. It’s GDP falls behind the UK and ahead of France. Crops will still grow, mining will still occur, fishing will still happen, manufacturing will still go on, etc. California is better able to take care of our needs than Washington ever was. 820 miles of coastline on the Pacific ocean, something most states lack and need desperately to be self sufficient, will allow international access to our markets. Our geography is perfect for independence. Vote coming, Spring 2019. I’ll be there. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/200 "2016-11-18T01:33:06Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > This would be another argument in favor of revoking citizenship, BTW - currently a US citizen can collect social security while in a foreign country, but a non-citizen in a foreign country has a tight time limit (IIRC it’s 6 months, then need to spend at least 30 days in the US to reactivate it). If you tell people that they have to convert to New California citizenship if they live there, you can cut HUGE expenses out of the social security program without actually modifying it in the least. OTOH, if Californians are staying US citizens, then they’ll be on the hook for US income tax and social security tax, and if Californian banks don’t help collect it they won’t be able to transfer money to the US, which basically shuts them down (that’s all existing law, no new laws needed). The dollar is an international currency, several countries use it today. California currency would be possible, but those are other issues that will be resolved post election. California also has state banking laws, and state chartered institutions. SS is a vested interest. Payable to the recipient based on previous participation. Are you going to tell me Social Security is long term viable? California will deal with the future as it comes up. > [@Pantastic](#): > > I think the Calexit people are thinking that they get to leave, do their own thing, but keep all of the benefits of being in the US. But if you’re a separate country, most of the benefits of being in the US require treaties, that the now-redder US will be disinclined to give to New California without getting something good in return. I haven’t seen in any of the literature anything about a desire to ask the US for benefits, other than those already vested (SS for eample). The people in France don’t expect US benefits and live fine without them. Now, along with no benefits, we’ll have no burden to supporting a system that can’t balance a budget and continues mortgaging its children’s future by buying expensive weapons, financing foreign wars and a governmental bureaucracy that’s wastefully inept. The day is going to come when that’s going to have to be paid back and it’s your grand kids (kids) who will have to figure out how to do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=11)