# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/221 "2016-11-18T17:30:53Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > … the fact that the US needs California more than California needs the US. Cite? Or is this more like your sovereign citizen income tax theory? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/222 "2016-11-18T17:44:55Z")
To be fair to **Morgenstern** , this isn’t really something that needs to be cited - logic would indicate that, if the US needs California more than California needs the US - the US probably isn’t going to let California secede. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/223 "2016-11-18T17:46:02Z")
Logic would indicate that this thread should have been closed four pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/224 "2016-11-18T18:01:43Z")
But it’s morbidly fascinating to see “leftists” use rhetoric that’s right out of Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/225 "2016-11-18T18:03:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > To be fair to **Morgenstern** , this isn’t really something that needs to be cited - logic would indicate that, if the US needs California more than California needs the US - the US probably isn’t going to let California secede. > > Regards, > Shodan No, logic doesn’t indicate that. Why do you think it would? Just how much CA needs the US needn’t be relevant to the US’s decision about secession. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/226 "2016-11-18T18:03:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Logic would indicate that this thread should have been closed four pages ago. They’re just celebrating that newly legal weed. But you do need to come down _occasionally_… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/227 "2016-11-18T18:07:44Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The red territory - please. California is the bluest state in the US. Interestingly enough, the founder of Hyperloop has offered to finance the succession effort. Silicon Valley is blue too. Silicon valley is so blue they are thinking about renaming royal blue to California blue. One CA legislator is considering introducing succession legislation at this time. > > See the 10th Amendment. See the part about the states keeping all rights not specifically given the US by the Constitution. The right to leave not mentioned in the Constitution. It remains a state right. > > The vote is whether California leaves, not whether California splits. They are welcome to vote on that if they like. > > The US might get pissed off at California and change trade and such? You’re ignoring the international shipping ports on the West coast and the fact that the US needs California more than California needs the US. > > We’re tired of 98 senators, and 350 something representatives making laws that don’t benefit California. We’re going to vote to change that. > > If it US goes and gets all pissy about this, as suggested above, we’ll probably just laugh, just as the world laughs now. That’ one of the problems, the US thinks force and intimidation is the answer to far too many problems. We have never learned the better way might be to get along and listen but keep your distance. > Income tax? Not. > US citizens who live in work in foreign countries for periods of time pay no US income tax. They remain citizens. _Benefits_ of US law are what we’re trying to avoid. Canada doesn’t receive benefit under US law. France doesn’t receive benefit under US law. England doesn’t receive benefits under US law. They seem to do just fine. We will too. It’s many of the “benefits” we’re trying to avoid. > > Are you brave enough to travel through the middle east on an American passport? Why not? You didn’t even look at that link did you? And did you really refer to the 10th? I thought states’ rights was a “dog whistle?” ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/228 "2016-11-18T18:12:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The red territory - please. California is the bluest state in the US. Interestingly enough, the founder of Hyperloop has offered to finance the succession effort. Silicon Valley is blue too. Silicon valley is so blue they are thinking about renaming royal blue to California blue. how is this evidence of anything other than an over-inflated sense of self-importance? > [@](#): > > The US might get pissed off at California and change trade and such? You’re ignoring the international shipping ports on the West coast and the fact that the US needs California more than California needs the US. only 5 of the top 100 shipping ports in the US are in California, and the largest (Long Beach) is only #5. > **[List of ports in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ports_in_the_United_States)** > > This is a list of ports of the United States, ranked by tonnage. Ports in the United States handle a wide variety of goods that are critical to the global economy, including petroleum, grain, steel, automobiles, and containerized goods. See the articles on individual ports for more information, including history, geography, and statistics. > Download coordinates as: > [@](#): > > We’re tired of 98 senators, and 350 something representatives making laws that don’t benefit California. You can find people in every state expressing that sentiment. Why is CA such a bunch of special snowflakes? > [@](#): > > If it US goes and gets all pissy about this, as suggested above, we’ll probably just laugh, just as the world laughs now. That’ one of the problems, the US thinks force and intimidation is the answer to far too many problems. We have never learned the better way might be to get along and listen but keep your distance. That’s it. This movement is being run by 16-year-olds. > [@](#): > > _Benefits_ of US law are what we’re trying to avoid. Canada doesn’t receive benefit under US law. France doesn’t receive benefit under US law. England doesn’t receive benefits under US law. They seem to do just fine. We will too. It’s many of the “benefits” we’re trying to avoid. Guess what? Those countries have had some form of federal government or monarchy for centuries. California doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Are you brave enough to travel through the middle east on an American passport? Why not? what does this have to do with anything? Are we reduced to slogging through a Gish gallop now? ---
**Author:** ![Zero-syde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Zero-syde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zero-syde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/229 "2016-11-18T18:21:14Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Income tax? Not. > US citizens who live in work in foreign countries for periods of time pay no US income tax. They remain citizens. That’s actually incorrect, and almost got a lot of my clients in trouble when they didn’t listen. If you’re a US citizen, you report all income from anywhere in the universe to the IRS. They then - usually, provided an agreement between nations exists - deduct foreign taxes paid. But you must report, and the US has a legal claim to it. It goes with citizenship - the US is one of the _only_ countries that does this… and the IRS is getting more aggressive. It was 2015 when I got out of the financial industry, and right as I left the IRS was rolling out aggressive policies against US citizens with foreign properties. The penalties for failure to report income & especially property were _draconian_. The IRS means business on foreign income, especially nowadays. The notion that it didn’t matter comes from _years_ of IRS neglect. In the past, they didn’t care and let it slide. Not anymore. _IANA financial advisor, this does not constitute advice._ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/230 "2016-11-18T18:24:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, logic doesn’t indicate that. Why do you think it would? Just how much CA needs the US needn’t be relevant to the US’s decision about secession. How much California needs the US isn’t relevant. How much the US needs California is going to affect how ready the US would be to let California secede. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/231 "2016-11-18T18:27:49Z")
Not having the pay income tax isn’t the same as not reporting income. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/232 "2016-11-18T18:46:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But it’s morbidly fascinating to see “leftists” use rhetoric that’s right out of Ayn Rand. Not on this board. I hold no illusions about there not being fellow travelers on my side who have goofy ideas, but I was pretty sure I had figured out all the longtime posters who were among them. ---
**Author:** ![Zero-syde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Zero-syde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zero-syde)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/233 "2016-11-18T18:58:50Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Not having the pay income tax isn’t the same as not reporting income. Sorry if I was unclear, you also must _pay taxes_ on the foreign income/property, not merely report it. Foreign taxes paid usually reduce and often eliminate this (the US has lower taxes than many countries). Failure to do so is a form of tax evasion. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/234 "2016-11-18T19:26:40Z")
I occasionally catch grief from Dopers for my belief that on a macro scale liberals exhibit the same problems as conservatives. Threads like this one and [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=811147) are a good example of why I believe so. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/235 "2016-11-18T19:44:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The front page of the Yes California website dives directly in to the donor state argument: I suppose one can read that in different ways, but I would say that it means that the donor state issue is on the very short list of reasons why California should break off from the rest of the U.S. You’re absolutely right. I should have gone there and had a good look around before opening my mouth. > [@](#): > > I’m not totally sure I’m reading your point correctly, but it sounds like you’re saying that economic activity in general (which produce wealth) is the prime reason why tax collections from California are so high, as opposed to collections from income taxes on more wealthy people. Am I following your point? > > If so, I don’t think this is right. In any given year, roughly $250 billion in Federal income taxes and payroll taxes are collected from Californians. Somewhere around $40 billion in business taxes are collected. Then there’s a several billion in miscellaneous estate, excise, and other taxes. That is my point, but I’m not sure what the business taxes have to do with it: most of that economic activity should show up in the paychecks of the people involved in it. California has a lot of high-earning people because they’ve got a lot of people doing work that the market seems to place a high value on. Mississippi doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Are you talking about low state tax, low state services leading to poor economic performance? That may be the underlying reason for not being a wealthy state – which is highly arguable – but I don’t think that has very much to do with the fact that many people retire in Mississippi, that this leads to inflows of various mandatory programs, and that fewer people pay high rates of income taxes due to residents having lower incomes generally. Do enough people retire to Mississippi from elsewhere that it makes them that much more of a recipient of Federal dollars? (If so, _why???_) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/236 "2016-11-18T19:52:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Do enough people retire to Mississippi from elsewhere that it makes them that much more of a recipient of Federal dollars? (If so, _why???_) I don’t know about MS specifically, but isn’t it obvious that places with lots of retirees, who are receiving Social Security checks every month and not paying much / any income tax, are going to show up as “recipient states”? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/237 "2016-11-18T20:19:50Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Seceding because one lost an _election_ is anathema to everything American Democracy is supposed to stand for. > > Seceding for other reasons may not be morally wrong (depends on grievance and lack of other recourse to solve it), but because one lost the election? I call BS. The Confederate states seceded after the election of 1860, not because they lost an election but because of what the election represented to their interests. Suppose Trump’s administration establishes a clear pattern of behavior that threatens California economic interests, particularly where Silicon Valley is concerned. Suppose further that, Californians, being the most diverse of all the 50 states in country (except possibly for Hawaii) reach the conclusion that the nation’s federal policies on civil rights and immigration are an affront to their values. It is not that difficult to see how some Californians might believe that they have a clear political pretext for secession. I’m not saying I’d agree with it – I don’t for the record – but as this country’s political polemic continues to intensify along the lines of demography and class, we’re going to more and more be like the adult couple that sleeps in separate bedrooms, if not outright separation and divorce. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/238 "2016-11-18T20:21:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not on this board. I hold no illusions about there not being fellow travelers on my side who have goofy ideas, but I was pretty sure I had figured out all the longtime posters who were among them. Call me easily amused, then. It just shows the temptation toward naked self-interest that exists in everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/239 "2016-11-18T20:27:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Income tax? Not. > US citizens who live in work in foreign countries for periods of time pay no US income tax. They remain citizens. _Benefits_ of US law are what we’re trying to avoid. I’m amazed at how utterly clueless you guys are on this topic, even when the information has been presented in this thread over and over. US citizens owe US income tax worldwide under current law. This isn’t some hypothetical made up for this thread, it’s the way things work right now. It’s also kind of funny that you say you’re trying to avoid benefits of US law when you’re talking about how to keep them. Can you at least be consistent? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/240 "2016-11-18T20:41:02Z")
Secession doesn’t seem to be a ‘win’ for either California or the United States, but perhaps California and certain states could, at some point, ask for (and receive) some degree of semi-autonomous recognition, similar to what exists in China and Russia. Just brain belching at the moment because I have no idea how secession or setting up normalized semi-autonomy would work constitutionally or otherwise, but perhaps that could be the pragmatic median between secession and living in a country that they no longer recognize. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=13)