# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/261 "2016-11-19T01:48:29Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And who cares about reconquering an urban center? Cut the power. Cut the water. Block the roads from food and supplies. See how self-sufficient these cities are. You’re splitting 10s dude. Water. Not needed. Seriously, not needed. What we need is an efficient way to get Northern California water to Southern California. Desalinization plants are already online, one a mere 4 miles from my house, the Carlsbad Desalination Plant is a 50 million gallon per day (56,000 acre-feet per year, seawater desalination plant. That’s one plant. Solar power makes many more possible. Block the roads from food supplies? Let’s see, Port of Long Beach, Port of Los Angeles, Port of San Diego, Port of San Francisco, did I miss any? You might google them, they are all pretty busy. CA easily has the infrastructure to maintain an international presence in commerce by air and by sea. Gonna blockade the ocean too? BTW, didn’t Stalin try blockading Berlin after WWII? How did that work out? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/262 "2016-11-19T01:51:21Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Gonna blockade the ocean too? We were talking about NYC, but, to answer your question, the US Navy is more than capable of blockading every California port if it chose to do so. Or destroy them. Or destroy the cities they’re built in. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/263 "2016-11-19T01:51:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For like the fourth or fifth time that I’ve posted on this point: if Californians wish to leave the United States, I believe it is likely that the US Congress will change the relevant laws such that people who seek to live in a country that is splitting off from the US, will no longer receive the benefits of being a US citizen. > > … Which is 90 percent of why there’s a movement. We could use our money to provide equal or better benefit to our citizens, and have money left over. We will do fine without contributing to foreign aid, capital military assets, a broken welfare/health care system, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/264 "2016-11-19T01:53:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We were talking about NYC, but, to answer your question, the US Navy is more than capable of blockading every California port if it chose to do so. Or destroy them. Or destroy the cities they’re built in. Again, how did the Berlin blockade work out? Did the world support that? Other than that, it’s just a silly statement. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/265 "2016-11-19T02:06:27Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Which is 90 percent of why there’s a movement. We could use our money to provide equal or better benefit to our citizens, and have money left over. We will do fine without contributing to foreign aid, capital military assets, a broken welfare/health care system, etc. You’re changing the topic. You keep saying that Californians will keep their citizenship. I think it’s very likely that they won’t, because why would the United States want to take responsibility of looking after Californians who get into trouble abroad or whatever other benefits come from American citizenship. Answe me this question: if California leaves, why would the 49 other states be in favor of allowing you to keep your citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/266 "2016-11-19T02:15:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, how did the Berlin blockade work out? Did the world support that? > Other than that, it’s just a silly statement. How concerned has President-Elect Trump appeared to you about what the rest of world does or does not support? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/267 "2016-11-19T02:49:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How concerned has President-Elect Trump appeared to you about what the rest of world does or does not support? Honestly, he’s too stupid to play the hand correctly, so it’s anyone’s guess. I suspect his cronies will suggest he give CA enough rope and hope we hang ourselves. After a few years, he’ll start realizing that we’re a better ally than not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/268 "2016-11-19T02:59:04Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Honestly, he’s too stupid to play the hand correctly, so it’s anyone’s guess. I suspect his cronies will suggest he give CA enough rope and hope we hang ourselves. After a few years, he’ll start realizing that we’re a better ally than not. You seem optimistic to the point of delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/269 "2016-11-19T03:02:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > A scammer calls you on the phone and offers to sell you a coupon book with 10 dollars worth of coupons in it for a mere 12 dollars. Even though the example is flawed, it still doesn’t explain why you think that after turning down the coupon book you’ll get to keep coupons from the coupon book like “US citizenship” “Participation in interstate agreements” “Open borders” “Membership in trade agreements the US negotiated” and “Free Trade with the US”. And it especially doesn’t explain how you expect to keep the “US citizenship” coupon, which carries an obligation to pay for the coupon book, but ditch the obligation to pay for the coupon book. Your arguments are really badly incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/270 "2016-11-19T03:07:46Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re splitting 10s dude. > > Water. Not needed. Seriously, not needed. What we need is an efficient way to get Northern California water to Southern California. Desalinization plants are already online, one a mere 4 miles from my house, the Carlsbad Desalination Plant is a 50 million gallon per day (56,000 acre-feet per year, seawater desalination plant. That’s one plant. Solar power makes many more possible. > > Block the roads from food supplies? Let’s see, Port of Long Beach, Port of Los Angeles, Port of San Diego, Port of San Francisco, did I miss any? You might google them, they are all pretty busy. CA easily has the infrastructure to maintain an international presence in commerce by air and by sea. > > Gonna blockade the ocean too? > > BTW, didn’t Stalin try blockading Berlin after WWII? How did that work out? You can’t be serious to think California full of the soft left that needs a safe space and secession because of an election is going to beat the US Navy. Plus someone mentioned the leftovers not being able to subdue Manhatten. At this point are you partaking in satirical writings? And since you are keen on open borders and secession it wouldn’t be long before Mexico was annexing parts of California. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/271 "2016-11-19T03:15:18Z")
You keep splitting 10s dude. Suggesting that the US would use military force against friends and relatives of many in the US is asinine. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/272 "2016-11-19T03:16:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I just looked it up - Californians get about $6 billion in Social Security benefits per month. If leaving the union would result in the cut-off of those benefits, which I think would be likely, that self-sufficiency math gets altered real quick. Once again, don’t confuse pieces of paper with wealth. West America would print its own banknotes and distribute its own SocSec checks. What the retiree could actually _buy_ with the pieces of paper is a separate question — in most scenarios both West America and the Leftover would be plunged into economic chaos. (If you insist on a scenario where the pieces of paper are what matters and West America is completely spun off, not having to share in the $20 trillion federal debt would ease their paper pain! 🙂 ) > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Why is Lower Manhattan relevant to a discussion about the military conquest of secessionists in California? The five boroughs voted against Trump in far greater numbers than California did, and if the Secession is to succeed I think we want to wait until New York joins us(\*). There are a few things on that little island that are synonymous with America’s great prestige (the Stock Market, much of the world’s gold reserve, the United Nations, etc.). Neither side could claim victory if the Leftover U.S.A. mounted a major military operation to retake New York. (\* - We’re speaking purely hypothetically. Secession would be calamitous; even discussing it seriously is probably very counter-productive. I hope most of you, like me, are just having fun with a hypothetical) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/273 "2016-11-19T03:22:38Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You keep splitting 10s dude. Suggesting that the US would use military force against friends and relatives of many in the US is asinine. You do realize this has actually happened before, right? 1860’s ring a bell? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/274 "2016-11-19T03:25:20Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Even though the example is flawed, it still doesn’t explain why you think that after turning down the coupon book you’ll get to keep coupons from the coupon book like “US citizenship” “Participation in interstate agreements” “Open borders” “Membership in trade agreements the US negotiated” and “Free Trade with the US”. And it especially doesn’t explain how you expect to keep the “US citizenship” coupon, which carries an obligation to pay for the coupon book, but ditch the obligation to pay for the coupon book. > > Your arguments are really badly incoherent. We don’t want your coupons. That’s the purpose of all this. We can do a better job of providing for our own that the US can. And we can do it with money left over because we’d not be supporting recipient states like we are now. If we were worried about losing US benefits, this discussion would never have started. We’ll resolve the issues as they come. Meanwhile, we’ll be a productive member of the international community enjoying trade and commerce on that level. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/275 "2016-11-19T03:25:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You keep splitting 10s dude. Suggesting that the US would use military force against friends and relatives of many in the US is asinine. Not as asinine as secession. And you really need to open a history book. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/276 "2016-11-19T03:33:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You do realize this has actually happened before, right? 1860’s ring a bell? Ah, we’ve covered that. Since 1860, and the post secession legislation something has happened. The US signed the UN charter. Congress ratified that charter. It guaranties certain rights - to all humans. Your argument would be more on point if you argues that the UN charter’s resolve is the right of self-government, and California is self-governed. It would fail though. True, California may have a legislature, elected officials, and a set of laws, but California is subject to laws and political appointments made by 98 senators, and 382 representatives we may not vote for. IE, we lack the ability to self-govern. Our right to self-governing is something the US has already agreed to, as I said, they did it when they signed the UN charter. I’m pretty sure the UN charter post-dates the 1860 legislation so we can dismiss that argument. ETA, another example from CE _The 98 senators we may not vote for have the collective authority to confirm judges to Federal courts that hold jurisdiction over the people of California. These judges have the authority to invalidate any law enacted by our state lawmakers. Since we have no power to reject or confirm these judges ourselves, this does not reflect self-government._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/277 "2016-11-19T03:34:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re changing the topic. > > You keep saying that Californians will keep their citizenship. I think it’s very likely that they won’t, because why would the United States want to take responsibility of looking after Californians who get into trouble abroad or whatever other benefits come from American citizenship. > > Answe me this question: if California leaves, why would the 49 other states be in favor of allowing you to keep your citizenship? While the idea of California seceding is ridiculous, I do think they’d keep their citizenship. The US doesn’t want to set the precedent that you can lose your citizenship if you were born on U.S. soil, which most Californians will have been. It is more likely that newly born Californians won’t keep their citizenship, though. That’s a tie they could more easily cut off. Also, don’t think that having a U.S. citizenship will get you stuff from the U.S. government. It at most means free migration for a while, to let people settle whether they want to be Californian or American. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/278 "2016-11-19T03:46:00Z")
Steve Bannon: If Trump delivers, we’ll govern for 50 years (from CNN) If that’s not enough to make you move to California and support the referendum, then you better hope Superman comes to save you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/279 "2016-11-19T03:47:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Ah, we’ve covered that. Since 1860, and the post secession legislation something has happened. The US signed the UN charter. Congress ratified that charter. It guaranties certain rights - to all humans. > > Your argument would be more on point if you argues that the UN charter’s resolve is the right of self-government, and California is self-governed. It would fail though. True, California may have a legislature, elected officials, and a set of laws, but California is subject to laws and political appointments made by 98 senators, and 382 representatives we may not vote for. IE, we lack the ability to self-govern. Our right to self-governing is something the US has already agreed to, as I said, they did it when they signed the UN charter. > > I’m pretty sure the UN charter post-dates the 1860 legislation so we can dismiss that argument. > > ETA, another example from CE > > _The 98 senators we may not vote for have the collective authority to confirm judges to Federal courts that hold jurisdiction over the people of California. These judges have the authority to invalidate any law enacted by our state lawmakers. Since we have no power to reject or confirm these judges ourselves, this does not reflect self-government._ If a normal politician were the President, you might be safe to hide behind the UN Charter. President-Elect Trump seems more than willing to cast aside international agreements when it suits him. Wrecking secessionist in California might suit him. He campaigned on waterboarding terrorists and drone striking their families. You want to pursue a course of action that might end with you being labeled a terrorist? It’s not a gamble i’d take if I were in California. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/280 "2016-11-19T03:54:13Z")
One thing that a lot of you people are missing is that California has one of the worst climates for business anywhere. Companies are leaving California every time you turn around. Want proof? Toyota the[world’s largest carmaker](http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2016/01/27/nice-try-vw-toyota-again-worlds-largest-automaker/#76f112592b65) is in the middle of moving their entire North American Headquarters to Texas. I know, I work there. My job is going to Texas. I either move or go get unemployment. Give the legislature about 6 months and they will make the environment for business so toxic that all California will have left is growing pot. Problem is after leaving the US, California won’t have any water to grow it with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=15)