# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/281 "2016-11-19T04:06:35Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We’ll resolve the issues as they come. Meanwhile, we’ll be a productive member of the international community enjoying trade and commerce on that level. As I asked earlier, with forest fires, the expected quakes and drought (and as proposed by a northerner, it would take years and tons of moolah to pump the desalinated water around the third largest state) where does all the recovery money come from? One bad year dealing with nature, we’d be poorer than Haiti. I hope my property taxes won’t go up to (gasps) East Coast levels. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/282 "2016-11-19T04:09:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Ah, we’ve covered that. Since 1860, and the post secession legislation something has happened. The US signed the UN charter. Congress ratified that charter. It guaranties certain rights - to all humans. > > Your argument would be more on point if you argues that the UN charter’s resolve is the right of self-government, and California is self-governed. It would fail though. True, California may have a legislature, elected officials, and a set of laws, but California is subject to laws and political appointments made by 98 senators, and 382 representatives we may not vote for. IE, we lack the ability to self-govern. Our right to self-governing is something the US has already agreed to, as I said, they did it when they signed the UN charter. > > I’m pretty sure the UN charter post-dates the 1860 legislation so we can dismiss that argument. > > ETA, another example from CE > > _The 98 senators we may not vote for have the collective authority to confirm judges to Federal courts that hold jurisdiction over the people of California. These judges have the authority to invalidate any law enacted by our state lawmakers. Since we have no power to reject or confirm these judges ourselves, this does not reflect self-government._ So some random village in some random county in some random state can secede and the UN will send in exactly how many divisions and carriers to enforce this so-called charter? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/283 "2016-11-19T04:45:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Water. Not needed. Seriously, not needed. What we need is an efficient way to get Northern California water to Southern California. The fuck you say. The Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta is environmentally stressed enough - not a single extra drop shall you get. Frankly we should be clawing some back. NorCalExit anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? I mean, like I really want to share MY state with a bunch of filthy Angelenos :p. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/284 "2016-11-19T06:37:06Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No it wasn’t, you just linked to current immigration policy, which is based on law and tradition, but not actually required by the constitution. You didn’t provide any cite for what part of the constitution would be violated by stripping citizenship from people who choose to swear loyalty to another country set up to deliberately oppose US interests and possibly considered in rebellion by the US. Yes I did. You didn’t look upthread enough. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/285 "2016-11-19T06:43:25Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Yes I did. You didn’t look upthread enough. So your best argument is to send someone on a scavenger hunt through your old posts. I think the feasibility of Calexit has become abundantly clear. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/286 "2016-11-19T06:46:09Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > it wasn’t “answered,” it was responded to with an overly generous and optimistic interpretation. Deliberately removing your state from the union could easily be interpreted by the US as “intentionally relinquishing US citizenship” and as such _you would lose it._ For a natural-born citizen, it’s not enough for the State Department to _interpret_ your actions as intentionally relinquishing your US citizenship. It has to be determined that you actually _did_ intend to relinquish your US citizenship. You may think this is a fine distinction, but lawyers make these fine distinctions all the time. Furthermore, there would presumably be a secret ballot on secession, and since the vote is unlikely to be unanimous, how would the US know which Californians deliberately removed their state from the union and which didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/287 "2016-11-19T06:48:45Z")
> [@Zero-syde](#): > > Sorry if I was unclear, you also must _pay taxes_ on the foreign income/property, not merely report it. Foreign taxes paid usually reduce and often eliminate this (the US has lower taxes than many countries). > > Failure to do so is a form of tax evasion. You only need to pay tax on income above a certain limit (something like $100,000). If you earn below that, you only need to report it. You don’t need to report what if any foreign tax you’ve paid on it, it’s just a blanket exemption from US income tax. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/288 "2016-11-19T07:05:07Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > You only need to pay tax on income above a certain limit (something like $100,000). If you earn below that, you only need to report it. You don’t need to report what if any foreign tax you’ve paid on it, it’s just a blanket exemption from US income tax. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/289 "2016-11-19T07:08:47Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > For a natural-born citizen, it’s not enough for the State Department to _interpret_ your actions as intentionally relinquishing your US citizenship. It has to be determined that you actually _did_ intend to relinquish your US citizenship. You may think this is a fine distinction, but lawyers make these fine distinctions all the time. > > Furthermore, there would presumably be a secret ballot on secession, and since the vote is unlikely to be unanimous, how would the US know which Californians deliberately removed their state from the union and which didn’t? It wouldn’t be all that hard to write a new law that says something like “Every resident of the state of California who doesn’t file a federal income tax return on time for the next 10 years will be deemed to have intended to relinquish their citizenship and forego all rights to future benefits. FOAD Californians.” or something along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/290 "2016-11-19T07:51:28Z")
Can we just expand this to be a left coast thing? We’ll go all APAC and fuck the flyover country? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/291 "2016-11-19T12:51:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s beyond ironic that liberals suddenly “discover” states’ rights, checks and balances, and limited judges when they lose an election. Just as ironic how conservatives support big government when it fits into their political agenda. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/292 "2016-11-19T12:53:45Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Can we just expand this to be a left coast thing? We’ll go all APAC and fuck the flyover country? 😉 I think a far better idea is to work with blue collar white voters who are really doing nothing more than getting ankle-deep in the Trump end of the pool. Trump didn’t win in a landslide and in fact lost the popular vote by more than a million. He won swing a multitude of states by 100,000 combined votes. We’ve been saying screw flyover country for a while now, and that’s what cost us the election. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/293 "2016-11-19T12:55:26Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Steve Bannon: If Trump delivers, we’ll govern for 50 years (from CNN) > > If that’s not enough to make you move to California and support the referendum, then you better hope Superman comes to save you. Well look on the bright side: he could have said ‘If Trump delivers, we’ll govern for another 500 years.’ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/294 "2016-11-19T13:43:50Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The fuck you say. The Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta is environmentally stressed enough - not a single extra drop shall you get. Frankly we should be clawing some back. > > NorCalExit anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? I mean, like I really want to share MY state with a bunch of filthy Angelenos :p. A-men, brother. Why would we NorCalers want La-La land anyway? Get your own damn water! If those folks down south don’t like NorCalExit, they can take it up with the UN! ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/295 "2016-11-19T14:25:36Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > For a natural-born citizen, it’s not enough for the State Department to _interpret_ your actions as intentionally relinquishing your US citizenship. It has to be determined that you actually _did_ intend to relinquish your US citizenship. You may think this is a fine distinction, but lawyers make these fine distinctions all the time. > > Furthermore, there would presumably be a secret ballot on secession, and since the vote is unlikely to be unanimous, how would the US know which Californians deliberately removed their state from the union and which didn’t? As poorly thought out, short sighted, and based on ignorance I think the whole secession idea is, I think **ruadh** is correct. If you read the text of the 14th Ammendment, I think you will come to the same point of view (maybe). Its the process of the future Califoreigners trying to _use_ that dual citizenship that is problematic. **Morgenstern** keeps referencing the UN charter, so I went and looked at it just to get some idea of where he was coming from. After a brief perusal of what seemed to me to be the most relevant parts([Chapter VI](http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VI_of_the_United_Nations_Charter), [Chapter XVI Article 103](http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_XVI_of_the_United_Nations_Charter), [Chapter VII article 51](http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter), [Chapter XI](http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_XI_of_the_United_Nations_Charter) the Wikipedia article in this link is less than complete, the article references other articles without providing links or the complete relevant text of those articles, specifically Articles 73 and 74.) I can see what is being said. The idea of secession as presented here is still short sighted in regard to both the future and the past. At best the UN will either be ignored, or will side with the United States. At worst there will be an invasion by a UN Military force or some other country (under the auspices of Chapter VII Article 51) either way the United States will not let California go. That would at the very best open the door to the dissolution of the US, and a destabilization of, well, the entire world really. At the worst, it would start a war right away and then would possibly lead to the destabilization of the entire world. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/296 "2016-11-19T14:28:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think a far better idea is to work with blue collar white voters who are really doing nothing more than getting ankle-deep in the Trump end of the pool. Trump didn’t win in a landslide and in fact lost the popular vote by more than a million. He won swing a multitude of states by 100,000 combined votes. We’ve been saying screw flyover country for a while now, and that’s what cost us the election. All the secession talk is a distraction to keep Americans from planning to deal with the very real problem now unfolding. [From where I live:](http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Democrats-turn-Harris-County-a-darker-shade-of-10603042.php) > [@](#): > > The country’s most populous swing county turned a shade bluer Tuesday, when Hillary Clinton trounced Donald Trump in Harris County despite trailing nationally. > > Clinton’s commanding victory here is a watershed moment for local Democrats who have struggled mightily to translate recent demographic shifts into gains at the ballot box. > > It also is seen, by some, as a harbinger of potential political change across Texas. Ooh, but all the pure folk live in California! Tell that to the Blue Yankees… (Will Californians start wearing Gray?) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/297 "2016-11-19T18:41:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Just as ironic how conservatives support big government when it fits into their political agenda. Maybe that’s true but this is a thread about sore left wing losers wanting to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/298 "2016-11-19T23:12:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A-men, brother. Why would we NorCalers want La-La land anyway? Get your own damn water! > > If those folks down south don’t like NorCalExit, they can take it up with the UN! Pssssstttttt. It’s only been said 5 or 6 times, but somehow you missed it. We make water here in SoCal. We make if from the big, wide, deep blue Pacific ocean. While most the US is shoveling snow in the winter, the sun is shining brightly on us here. The same sun that creates solar energy to power the process of desalinization. So, 365 days a year, we’re making water. PM me if you need further explanation and I’ll be happy to help you out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/299 "2016-11-19T23:19:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Maybe that’s true but this is a thread about sore left wing losers wanting to secede. In your effort to push your short-sighted agenda you keep forgetting one thing. One rather big thing that sort of proves how false your rational is. -that thing is- This movement \*\*predates \*\*the national nightmare of 11/08/2016. But, and this is a big but here, being on the other side of the “wall” when the US government falters as a big, unexpected advantage in this referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/300 "2016-11-19T23:27:24Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > … > > Ooh, but all the pure folk live in California! Tell that to the Blue Yankees… (Will Californians start wearing Gray?) It’s Novermer 19th. I drove by the beach today to check what they locals were wearing. It appears it’s long blonde hair and bikinis and board shorts. Flip flops appears to be the official footwear and t shirts. But, it’s a little chilly today, a 70 degree and partly cloudy day. Looks like winter has already arrived. Didn’t see any gray though. Looked more like [this.](http://www.qando.net/wp-content/uploads/beachdancer.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=16)