# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/481 "2016-11-24T15:51:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think he’s saying that the federal government won’t use force because it learned its lesson after Ruby Ridge and Waco. Apparently the implication is that a log cabin full of morons is equivalent to a very large state. What the US learns from history is that the US never learns from History. It’s the US way, it’s filtered all the way down to the street where deadly force is the answer to a suspect pointing a ham sandwich at a cop, or shooting “morons in a log cabin.” Somehow I think many things could be changed for the better and unfortunately, the US is too big, and too deaf, to ever change. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/482 "2016-11-24T16:12:09Z")
So, still nothing in it for the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/483 "2016-11-24T16:13:35Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > As I’ve pointed out. YesCalifornia feels that Californian’s are _much_ better able to manage our; > > 1. Peace and security > 2. Elections and government > 3. Trade and regulation > 4. Debt and taxes > 5. Immigration > 6. Natural resources > 7. Environment > 8. Health and medicine > 9. Education. > > These are the reasons YesCalifornia exists. > > People invested in keeping CA in the union? Absolutely. But Californian’s should control California’s future. That’s what this is about. please explain to me again (I know you think you’ve explained it many times already, but I’m just not getting it) how peace and security (which some people call defense) will work? I will stipulate education, environment, natural resources and health and medicine. The rest I still have questions about but are secondary to peace and security. Also, what sort of activities would you categorize under peace and security? eta scabpicker does raise the point more directly, what are you going to do to appease the rest of the US whose way of life and the very country that makes it possible you are threatening? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/484 "2016-11-24T16:37:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > But Californian’s should control California’s future. That’s what this is about. I was born in Ithaca, NY. 18% of American-born CA residents were born out of state like me. Another 27% were foreign born. What makes a Californian? The other 55%? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/485 "2016-11-24T17:23:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The word ‘colonies’ is never used in the Chapter. The chapter provides… > > _Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government_ > > The rest of your post is merely your opinion. I don’t accept that, sorry. You keep glossing over the word “territories,” which in the context means non-organic parts of a country. It means, in practice, colonies (or whatever term of art a particular country may wish to apply) and not states, provinces, cities, etc. that are fully integrated into a country. So the article refers to COLONIES that have not yet been either made independent or fully integrated into a country. I’ve cited the UN list of non-self governing territories. I’ve cited that countries that achieved independence after being fully integrated with another country were never on the list. You’ve cited nothing to back up your mistaken opinion. You’re quite literally arguing a fantasyland opinion, in which you have determined, without any expertise, that a treaty means something it doesn’t and refuse to face facts that your interpretation is erroneous, unsupported, without historical basis, and rather absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/486 "2016-11-24T17:28:19Z")
By the way, here’s a UN webpage that in layman’s terms describes the state of post-WW2 decolonization. It includes this quote: > [@](#): > > In a vast political reshaping of the world, more than 80 former colonies comprising some 750 million people have gained independence since the creation of the United Nations. At present, 17 Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs) across the globe remain to be decolonized, home to nearly 2 million people. Thus, the process of decolonization is not complete. [http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/](http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/487 "2016-11-24T17:36:36Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > As I’ve pointed out. YesCalifornia feels that Californian’s are _much_ better able to manage our; > > 1. Peace and security > 2. Elections and government > 3. Trade and regulation > 4. Debt and taxes > 5. Immigration > 6. Natural resources > 7. Environment > 8. Health and medicine > 9. Education. And I’m sure Californians will be far better suited to manage [this](http://www.wsj.com/articles/earthquakes-reckoning-with-the-big-one-in-californiaand-it-just-got-bigger-1479643228) on their own, without that wasteful old federal government interfering. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/488 "2016-11-24T17:46:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You keep glossing over the word “territories,” which in the context means non-organic parts of a country. It means, in practice, colonies (or whatever term of art a particular country may wish to apply) and not states, provinces, cities, etc. that are fully integrated into a country. > > So the article refers to COLONIES that have not yet been either made independent or fully integrated into a country. > > I’ve cited the UN list of non-self governing territories. I’ve cited that countries that achieved independence after being fully integrated with another country were never on the list. You’ve cited nothing to back up your mistaken opinion. You’re quite literally arguing a fantasyland opinion, in which you have determined, without any expertise, that a treaty means something it doesn’t and refuse to face facts that your interpretation is erroneous, unsupported, without historical basis, and rather absurd. The UN page listing those territories is called [“The UN and Decolonization”.](http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/nonselfgov.shtml) The wikipedia page about the Trusteeship Council is also enlightening: > [@](#): > > The trust territories—most of them former mandates of the League of Nations or territories taken from nations defeated at the end of World War II—have all now attained self-government or independence, either as separate nations or by joining neighbouring independent countries. > > \ > > Over time, as trust territories attained independence, the size and workload of the Trusteeship Council was reduced and ultimately came to include only the five permanent Security Council members (China, France, the Soviet Union/Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States). > > \ > > **Present status** > > Its mission fulfilled, the Trusteeship Council suspended its operation on 1 November 1994, and although under the United Nations Charter it continues to exist on paper, its future role and even existence remains uncertain. I’m sure they’re all waiting in the wings, though, for the moment when the oppressed peoples of the “non-self governing territory” of CA apply for protection from the body that has the US, Great Britain and France as 3 of its 5 current members. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/489 "2016-11-24T18:10:25Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Actually, _Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic_ was. Not the Ukraine. The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic dissolved in 1991. It doesn’t exist. You’re mistaken. The Ukrainian SSR declared independence in 1991 (and later passed a new constitution and changed its name), it was not dissolved. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/490 "2016-11-24T18:11:01Z")
So, does that mean that Russia is also not a signatory to the UN Charter? Although, just to play devil’s advocate a little bit here, an attempt at secession by CA does open some interesting possibilities. Despite the continued protests that it wouldn’t happen, armed conflict is inevitable. I can picture a scenario where it is “bush league” fighting by secessionists and loyalists in the streets and “hedgerows”. I would imagine, in such a scenario, that however unlikely this is to be, there would be a possibility for independent, private military units to come into play. If a certain poster, with a military history were to somehow be able to form such a unit, fully equipped, I’d sign up to be part of his maintenance section, just so I could say I was part of the \* \* \* \* \* \* \* wait for it \* \* \* \* \* \* man I’ve been looking for an excuse to use this line somewhere \* \* \* \* \* \* \* \* \* \* DinoR’s Chrome Brigade ok, this thread has peaked for me. exits, thread left ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/491 "2016-11-24T18:19:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You’re mistaken. The Ukrainian SSR declared independence in 1991 (and later passed a new constitution and changed its name), it was not dissolved. I’m afraid some folks have been duped by the YesCalifornia website, which goes on about UN Charter Chapter XI as if it existing in a vacuum and was ripe for interpretation. I guess those guys didn’t realize there was a Chapter XII and XIII :smack:. OTOH, it’s understandable, though, since it’s totally believable that the US would sign onto a document that would require it to allow states to secede by simply voting to do so. Totally believable. I also just read that 20% of CA recently bought the Golden Gate Bridge. Now they’re fighting over whose claim is the most legit. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/492 "2016-11-25T15:51:15Z")
You know you’ve done it right when… [This happens.](http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/11/22/calexit-leftists-file-papers-2018-referendum/) I love the comment, _California has been moving politically from the rest of the country._… That makes me proud. Never mind the movement predates Trump’s success, when did they let facts interfere with a good news story. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/493 "2016-11-25T22:52:59Z")
yanno, I checked back in just cause I’ve had a lot of fun with this thread, but I gotta say **Morgenstern** wow, I knew you were arguing from a naïve, short-sighted, ill-informed, magical-thinking point of view of how the world works, but you’re a part of or supportive of that?!?! My god, man! These people think California is heading in the opposite direction of the rest of the country politically? Are these people folks that never venture more than a block or two from their own home, never talk to anybody outside their own family and coworkers? don’t watch any form of news? This article you linked to depicts a group of people that go beyond bubble thinking, these people created their own little hole in the universe, went inside and pulled the hole in behind them.:smack: **Morgenstern** please, for your own well being, and a happy healthy future, run, don’t walk, run away from these people. ---
**Author:** ![NetTrekker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nettrekker/32/2909_2.png) [@NetTrekker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NetTrekker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/494 "2016-12-15T03:42:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Where are y’all going to get your water? WHAT ABOUT OUR WATER AND AGRICULTURE? Even with the water shortages we faced in 2014, California’s 76,400 farms produced $54 billion that year - a more than five percent increase in cash receipts from 2013. No other state in the county has a larger agricultural output than California so it is no doubt that this industry is a very important part of California’s economy. About half of California’s water is used for environmental purposes such as maintaining habitats and scenic rivers or keeping seawater out of the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta, which is an important source of our drinking water. Another 40 percent of California’s water is used for agricultural irrigation while urban usage represents the remaining ten percent of water usage. Technological innovation has allowed for agricultural and urban water usage to decline although farm production and the population continues to grow each year. This is good news for the environment as well as the economy. While an independent California will continue to foster the technological innovation and promote the environmental conservation that has led to the decline in water usage across California, independence means we can actually increase the water supply. More water means California’s $2.46 trillion economy - the sixth largest in the world - can continue to expand because farmers will be able to grow more crops and we as a nation will be able to support an ever-growing population. In normal years, the snowpack supplies about 30 percent of California’s water as it melts in the spring and early summer. The larger the snowpack, the greater the likelihood California’s reservoirs will receive ample runoff. However, this snow and the associated runoff is on federal lands and managed by federal agencies subject to the federal budget. The problem is the federal government is mismanaging these lands by allowing the forests of the Sierra Nevada mountains to become too dense. Not only does that negatively affect the health of our forests and increase the likelihood of forest fires, but more trees means that more water is being consumed and therefore there is less runoff. As an independent country, we will take control of our forests. This will put us in position to increase mechanical thinning and restore meadows. In doing so, we will allow our beautiful Sequoias to grow and flourish, reduce the threat of forest fires, and increase the water supply available for hydropower, agriculture, and urban water usage - the economic benefits of which would be sufficient to cover the costs of these restoration projects. Not only has the federal government mismanaged our forests but they have also been allowing private corporations to extract California’s groundwater from these forests with permits that have been expired since the late 1980s. While this does not represent a huge portion of our water supply, every drop counts - especially in a drought. An independent California will have oversight authority to not only make sure that private companies extracting our groundwater for profit are operating with valid permits, but also that they adequately compensate the people of California for this precious resource. The federal government permits these companies to extract millions of gallons of our water for just $527 a year! On top of all this, because we will no longer be subsidizing other states and also spending less on the military, an independent California will have more money to pay for the maintenance of existing water infrastructure facilities - such as those near Sacramento, one of the most “at-risk” areas for a catastrophic flood resulting from levee failure, as well as new projects, including Eco-friendly desalination along the coast. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/495 "2016-12-15T05:05:11Z")
I think it’s kind of cute that the #CalExit people believe the rest of California would let them “increase mechanical thinning” of their forests. When the Healthy Forest Initiative was passed in 2003, California’s Congressional delegation voted against it 29-23. The Sierra Club (headquartered in Oakland) sued and won an injunction against the law in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/496 "2016-12-15T07:28:37Z")
I just read CalExit’s Water Manifesto, posted by **NetTrekker**. It reads like a tirade against the liberals in Washington who had too much power under Obama and are mismanaging the states. IOW, like a right-wing Republican screed. Is that what CalExit is about? Or are Hillaryists just trying to pander to anti-federalism because that’s where the votes are? > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Actually, _Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic_ was. Not the Ukraine. The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic dissolved in 1991. It doesn’t exist. What is the formal UN process when a member state changes status? The Gouvernement Provisoire de la République Française was not only a founding Member, but given a Permanent seat on the Security Council. Was a special UN vote needed a year later when the GPRF ceased to exist and control passed to the Fourth Republic? And Ethiopia has changed status at least four times since it was a Founding Member; and so on. All of which is irrelevant, of course. The status of California will be determined by good ol’ boys speaking Yankee, not any soldiers in blue berets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/497 "2016-12-15T14:49:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What is the formal UN process when a member state changes status? The formal process is codified in the [Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect to Treaties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Succession_of_States_in_respect_of_Treaties) (the UN Charter being a multilateral treaty). Unfortunately, the convention relies on a number of distinctions which are generally hard to make. The convention has not been ratified by enough states to render it normative international law, so it’s not really binding on nonparties anyway. Typically, in the case of a dissolution resulting in multiple new states, the largest or most influential new state will take on the treaty rights and obligations of the old. Russia was the successor state to the Soviet Union in that sense. It doesn’t always work out that way, of course; Taiwan was the original successor state to the Republic of China, in that the ROC government continued to rule Taiwan, but obviously that didn’t make much sense and the People’s Republic of China (i.e. mainland communist China) took over the ROC’s treaty obligations and duties from about 1970. The Taliban government controlled most of Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal, but the relatively small area still held by the prior government in the north retained control of Afghanistan’s UN seat. Sometimes it doesn’t work out that way because a new state doesn’t want to be burdened with an old state’s obligations. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/498 "2016-12-16T03:55:55Z")
Why just California? Wheel out the old Jesusland maps from 2004. Or break America down into regions. New England, Dixie, Texas, The Great Lakes, Cascadia, and…whatever you want to call the stuff in the middle. The Empty Quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/499 "2016-12-16T04:57:08Z")
[The guy running CalExit operates out of Russia.](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/From-his-home-in-Russia-Calexit-leader-plots-10796796.php) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/500 "2016-12-16T11:15:06Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > [The guy running CalExit operates out of Russia.](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/From-his-home-in-Russia-Calexit-leader-plots-10796796.php) Grossly misleading. But if it was true, and Russia got their man elected POTUS… Facts. Louis Marinelli was born in New York. He’s a US citizen. He ran for the CA state assembly last summer, and got 6.4% of the vote. He ran the 80th district, San Diego, etc. He did not run from Russia, he ran from San Diego. He’s in Russia, now teaching English. Poor guy has to work for a living. He’s married to a Russian woman. Ask Trump about that. (Yugoslavia) He’s been a proponent of a separate California since 2014, long before the national nightmare occurred. Oh, and water… Arizona just got fucked for water. Seems they agreed to forgo their share or grossly limit it if there was a shortage in the Colorado basin. And guess what. I’m writing this as it’s pouring rain, expected to rain for the next 12 hours too. We get our water, mostly from the Sierra snow pack. Nothing changes if CA is part of the US or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=26)