# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/701 "2017-01-04T16:27:19Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > bolding mine > > To be fair Pantastic, I DO believe Russia and China would gleefully and with malice aforethought support all manner of secessionist movements in the US. (and possibly do so even if it is in a sub-rosa sort of way). OK, when have Russia and China supported a wide manner of secessionist movements in another major country? If they haven’t, what do you base their alleged willingness to on? > [@](#): > > I think Morgenstern is either very very naïve/shortsighted/willfully ignorant about the realities of this topic and stubborn, or is on an extended whoosh binge with this thread, but to say no other countries, especially China or Russia wouldn’t meddle if they think they can get away with it is, I think equally naïve/shortsighted. I’m not sure why you think your opinion of a claim that no one is making is relevant to this thread. I certainly didn’t claim that Russia or China “wouldn’t meddle”, they “meddle” in all kinds of things. But they’re not going to openly support secessionist movements using the argument that the UN charter explicitly allows secession by regions that feel disaffected, because that weakens their case for dealing with their own secessionist regions - in other words, they don’t think they can get away with that. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/702 "2017-01-05T04:57:33Z")
Here, I’ll repost the specific opinion statement I was responding too, only this time I’ll completely isolate from the rest of your post, instead of merely bolding it to highlight it, so as to avoid any further confusion. I think your opinion is wrong, even though on the face of it, it would seem correct. to clarify my opinion, I think they would (and possibly do) support secession movements in the US, but probably not openly. > [@Pantastic](#): > > expecting countries like Russia and China who have significant secessionist movements they actively suppress to support secession is beyond just wishful. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/703 "2017-01-05T12:57:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Your argument would be better aimed at the “self-governing” aspect if the charter. Argue that we are self-governing, and I’ll give many examples of why we are not. That’s the potential problem with this, not whether the charter would cover an independent CA. For the record, California sends representatives to the House of Representatives. You send senators to the Senate. You vote for the President of the US, and, in fact, have more electoral votes than any other state. Three presidents have been from California. One of the 8 members of the Supreme Court is from Californa. The current House minority leader, who was, until 6 years ago, Speaker of the House, is from California. The current House majority leader, who is in a good position to become Speaker of the House should Paul Ryan resign in frustration with his caucus, is from California. So explain again how you’re being denied self government? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/704 "2017-01-05T13:02:20Z")
There’s historical precedent for not supporting independence movement to not encourage the same in your own country: for instance Austria’s lack of support for Greek independence from the Ottomans. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/705 "2017-01-05T16:33:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There’s historical precedent for not supporting independence movement to not encourage the same in your own country: for instance Austria’s lack of support for Greek independence from the Ottomans. I don’t think you have to look that far back. It’s fairly accepted that Spain’s stance during the Scottish independence referendum, i.e. Scotland wouldn’t get to stay in the EU once they separated, was to dissuade their own independence movements. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/706 "2017-01-05T17:32:20Z")
When you secede out there, think about alternatives to representative government (I assume that’s still a go with you) based on geography. Think age instead. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/707 "2017-01-05T18:01:31Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. He would. It worked on the Confederacy. Secession didn’t start a shooting war. The CSA’s military attack against Ft Sumter did. Until April 12, 1861, those concerned about the secession of seven states spent their time talking about the issue. _You can’t do that. Yes, we can. Sez who? Sez us, y’all. They can’t do that, can they? Apparently they can. What do we do know? I don’t know._ General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/708 "2017-01-05T18:36:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Secession didn’t start a shooting war. The CSA’s military attack against Ft Sumter did. Until April 12, 1861, those concerned about the secession of seven states spent their time talking about the issue. _You can’t do that. Yes, we can. Sez who? Sez us, y’all. They can’t do that, can they? Apparently they can. What do we do know? I don’t know._ > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. If CA tried to secede, as a CA resident and citizen of the U.S. I’d consider taking up arms as a potential outcome of last resort. I’d prefer that the new country of CA compensate me for my land at a price of my choosing. Now if the state trying to secede was any other than CA since I’m not a resident I’d not be as interested. It’s an interesting thought experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/709 "2017-01-05T18:49:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. i thought conservatives would line up to blow away California weirdos. But seriously, if California did secede, I hope the response wouldn’t come to violence but I would certainly accept that the US may have to use the National Guard or whatever to enforce the law that states don’t get to rewrite the Constitution because they would prefer to. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/710 "2017-01-05T19:38:49Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. There are people in this thread who have said they’d be in favor of it, I’m not sure why you’re denying they exist. The US government should not allow an arbitrary group of traitors in revolt or a foreign government to claim sovereignity over US citizens without a fight, if a group can arbitrarily declare that US territory populated by US citizens is suddenly theirs then there’s no point in having a US government at all. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/711 "2017-01-05T19:39:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > There is no plan for an offensive military. We won’t need one. We’re not interested in protecting the world, just those within our our Republic. > > Travel will be as it is now. Citizens of California will enjoy dual citizenship. We’ll be able to, if ever the need arises, visit Arizona and the rest of the US. Dual citizens have to pay US taxes…Wouldn’t be much of a savings for those of us who do business across the states. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/712 "2017-01-05T20:30:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. I would. I don’t see what the problem is with using force to prevent people from doing something illegal. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/713 "2017-01-05T22:42:51Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Secession didn’t start a shooting war. The CSA’s military attack against Ft Sumter did. Until April 12, 1861, those concerned about the secession of seven states spent their time talking about the issue. _You can’t do that. Yes, we can. Sez who? Sez us, y’all. They can’t do that, can they? Apparently they can. What do we do know? I don’t know._ > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. I do and I doubt I’m a minority of 1. I’d much rather see secessionists and their supporters crushed than deal with the Balkanization of the US and future wars. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/714 "2017-01-05T23:07:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > . . . General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. I’d definitely expect that it would happen. I’d hope ports didn’t get bombed, because I work within a mile of one. Although if they buttoned down SF bay, Stockton’s port would be blocked as a byproduct. So we might luck out there. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/715 "2017-01-06T14:01:50Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > General interest question - Is there anyone in the U.S. who would actually support the use of U.S. Armed Forces to force California back into the U.S.A.? I don’t believe there are. I would support it. It wouldn’t be anything like the Civil War, however. More like the desegregation of Southern schools - limited military force to undo whatever the CA government officials tried to do, some arrests, maybe declare martial law in a few places, then replace the elected officials who went along with the secession and then Reconstruction. Messy and unpleasant, certainly. Fortunately it won’t happen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/716 "2017-01-06T14:37:17Z")
“Support” might be too strong a word. As a general rule, I would not be in favor of military action against US citizens (or anyone else) but I accept that sometimes it’s necessary. In the case of a _unilateral_ secession by California or any other portion of the country it would be necessary. I am not opposed to a negotiated exit with appropriate concessions made to the remainder US. Not in principle, anyway. In practice I would be hugely opposed since it would mean a fundamental shift in the balance of power in the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/717 "2017-01-06T15:12:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Support” might be too strong a word. As a general rule, I would not be in favor of military action against US citizens (or anyone else) but I accept that sometimes it’s necessary. In the case of a _unilateral_ secession by California or any other portion of the country it would be necessary. > > I am not opposed to a negotiated exit with appropriate concessions made to the remainder US. Not in principle, anyway. In practice I would be hugely opposed since it would mean a fundamental shift in the balance of power in the federal government. Well put. There is nothing wrong with secession, per se, as long as it’s done legally. Not this “Chapter 11” mumbo-jumbo. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/718 "2017-01-06T15:18:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Support” might be too strong a word. As a general rule, I would not be in favor of military action against US citizens (or anyone else) but I accept that sometimes it’s necessary. In the case of a _unilateral_ secession by California or any other portion of the country it would be necessary. > > I am not opposed to a negotiated exit with appropriate concessions made to the remainder US. Not in principle, anyway. In practice I would be hugely opposed since it would mean a fundamental shift in the balance of power in the federal government. but this is predicated on the idea that California would need to make _no_ concessions to the remainder. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/719 "2017-01-07T13:28:10Z")
Yes, there are many of us who would support military intervention, as has already been said. **Shodan** In my opinion, unfounded on facts as it may be, it seems it took the South, roughly 100 years to recover fully from the effects of the civil war and reconstruction. Do you have any opinion on what the results from similar actions in California would be, and how long it would take for California recover fully? I only ask because you mentioned reconstruction and it made wonder about that part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/720 "2017-01-07T17:23:13Z")
Morganstern, Would you mind answering Ravenman’s question earlier? > [@](#): > > \*\*The people of California are exactly as much self-governing as the people of any other state. Just like the people of Nice are as much self-governing as the people of Paris; and the people of the southern part of San Marino are as self-governing as the people who live in the western part of San Marino. > > The problem is that the people of Hawaii were not as self-governing as the people of California, until Hawaii became a state. And when Hawaii became a state, the UN commission in charge of these things redesignated Hawaii from a “non-self governing territory” to a “former non-self governing territory.” If the people in each state are not self-governing, why did the UN remove Hawaii (and Alaska!) from its list of non-self governing territories when they became states? > > I’m eagerly awaiting your answer to that specific question\*\*. I ask because he made a good question and your refusal to answer it for several days now is quite telling. It makes it appear to outsiders like you’ve realized your UN argument was a bit foolish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=37)