# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/941 "2017-01-27T18:51:12Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Peaceful secession such as CalExit has never been tried. See, the Civil war was at a time when the bullet was the chosen method of settling disagreements. Today we use the ballot boxes. They didn’t use the ballot box the last time, and the country quickly headed to war. That’s what happens when retards get guns. We don’t use bullets in this day and time to resolve disagreements. First - Please do not use “retard” as a slur in this fashion. > [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m also not overly surprised to find that you’re the type to use ‘retard’ as a slur, it says a lot about your basic character. Second - Please try to avoid making arguments personal in this way. I do not interpret this as an insult, though I do think it’s unnecessarily inflammatory. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/942 "2017-01-27T19:21:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Seems so 2017 Republican doesn’t it? (maybe he’s trying to get a cabinet offer from Trump?) > > Don’t worry about it. He’s there working for a living. > > You know, your opinions and guesses aren’t really worth an answer anymore. But let me give you one last example of how selective reading leads to missing so many points. > > Peaceful secession such as CalExit has never been tried. See, the Civil war was at a time when the bullet was the chosen method of settling disagreements. Today we use the ballot boxes. They didn’t use the ballot box the last time, and the country quickly headed to war. That’s what happens when retards get guns. We don’t use bullets in this day and time to resolve disagreements. > > Now basically, I’m done responding to your guesses and assumptions about how the US has not evolved past 1860 dispute resolution methods. Post if you like, but I have no desire to further engage you. You don’t pay attention to reality. The US uses violence and bullets every day to settle differences. Drones and stealth bombers as well. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/943 "2017-01-27T19:54:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You don’t pay attention to reality. The US uses violence and bullets every day to settle differences. Drones and stealth bombers as well. Well, the US also DOESN’T use violence to settle differences, too. However unlikely, if California got support from the required number of states, there would be no violence, however much some of you seem excited by the notion. California would do it legally, so all these fantasies of a nice good old fashioned bloody and violent civil war are, just fantasies. You seem to imagine California declaring a war, which has never been part of the plan. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/944 "2017-01-27T20:03:49Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, the US also DOESN’T use violence to settle differences, too. However unlikely, if California got support from the required number of states, there would be no violence, however much some of you seem excited by the notion. California would do it legally, so all these fantasies of a nice good old fashioned bloody and violent civil war are, just fantasies. > > You seem to imagine California declaring a war, which has never been part of the plan. U misread what Octopus was responding to. Morgenstern seems to believe that Cali separatists can seize US military bases and there won’t be any repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/945 "2017-01-27T20:22:34Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The CA AG’s office has had this and reviewed it and now it goes to the Sec of State for filing and thereafter signature collection can begin. I assume if this was illegal the AG’s office would have noticed. . . . . IIRC, the Sodomite Suppression Act had all the signatures they needed to get on the ballot. It was only when it came time to print it into the election pamphlets that it was reviewed. Think about it. A proposition to make it legal for any random citizen to kill a person, with no due process, because they’re gay was allowed to collect signatures. That’s how much it’s not the AG’s job to “review” propositions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/946 "2017-01-27T20:41:33Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > U misread what Octopus was responding to. Morgenstern seems to believe that Cali separatists can seize US military bases and there won’t be any repercussions. **Octopus** quoted what he responded to and I don’t see anything about seizing bases. He was talking about peaceful secession vs the civil war. Where did he talk about seizing bases? \*\*Morgenstern \*\*says peaceful secession, and \*\*Octopus \*\*says “nope. Bullets, violence, drones and stealth bombers.” I don’t see the US resorting to war if the secession was legal. That would be a minority of states going against the will of a majority of states. Now, if a minority of states declares war against the majority of states, that would be an interesting war. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/947 "2017-01-27T21:31:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Where did he talk about seizing bases? It was on the last page, post #895 and #896. I was asking Morgenstern what would become of Camp Pendleton, and the rest of the 45% of California that is owned by the federal government. He said “we’re free to do with it as we choose”, which Octopus, and me, and probably others, interpreted to mean that they’d kick the Marines out of Camp Pendleton. Good fucking luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/948 "2017-01-27T22:43:08Z")
I’ll say this for you, **Morgenstern** : you’ve finally united the left and the right. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/949 "2017-01-27T22:57:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It was on the last page, post #895 and #896. I was asking Morgenstern what would become of Camp Pendleton, and the rest of the 45% of California that is owned by the federal government. He said “we’re free to do with it as we choose”, which Octopus, and me, and probably others, interpreted to mean that they’d kick the Marines out of Camp Pendleton. Good fucking luck with that. I see. I read the last page before posting to make sure I wasn’t missing something. If California seceded, federal lands would revert to California and technically, Marines would be trespassing except in reality there would be agreements made before California took control. Nothing was said about kicking anyone out. If both parties think certain bases are important, California could just charge $0 for rent or something. No need for stealth bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/950 "2017-01-27T23:11:11Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Especially if you include “Calexit happens, then Calexitifornia immediately splits into multiple states using the same logic as Calexit”, as I think that would be ny far the most likely result of a successful Calexit movement. You just have to use the same “logic” that the Parti Quebecois used when they wanted to split from Canada; They could leave the country with a 50% +1 vote because Canada is just a bunch of parts, but the borders of Quebec are sacred and inviolable. Sure it makes no sense, but what the hey. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/951 "2017-01-27T23:22:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I see. I read the last page before posting to make sure I wasn’t missing something. If California seceded, federal lands would revert to California and technically, Marines would be trespassing except in reality there would be agreements made before California took control. Nothing was said about kicking anyone out. If both parties think certain bases are important, California could just charge $0 for rent or something. > > No need for stealth bombing. So your view is that USA gets no compensation for the 45% of California that it owns? Not a very compelling reason for the rest of us to grant California their independence … ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/952 "2017-01-27T23:31:17Z")
Not to mention the fact that many actual Californians will take up arms to stop it from happening. I would gladly grant a few separatists the privilege of dying for their artificial country. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/953 "2017-01-27T23:37:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t see the US resorting to war if the secession was legal. That would be a minority of states going against the will of a majority of states. That point was conceded more than a dozen pages ago by everyone, because it’s true but worthless. The trick is that for secession to be legal, you need to get 3/4 of the other states to agree to it, and Calexit supporters have not explained how that is supposed to happen. There are multiple strong arguments for not allowing it, and even the arguments put forth by Calexiters say that it’s in the best interest of ALL of the other states to keep CA in the union. The theme in this thread is that you just need to get 51% of Californians to vote on a referendum and then the process for Calexitfornia begins, but you actually need much, much more support than that (even in CA) for a variety of reasons. Absent a constitutional amendment (or consitutional convention), there is NO legal path for secession. And it’s going to be hard to get that amendment to pass… > [@levdrakon](#): > > I see. I read the last page before posting to make sure I wasn’t missing something. If California seceded, federal lands would revert to California if the deal forces the US government to give up the 45% of the land in the state of CA that it owns, including several expensive military bases containing valuable and classified military equipment. Though I’m not aware of any secession agreements where one government just outright loses all of their owned property during the split, do you have any examples? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/954 "2017-01-27T23:55:09Z")
I was curious, and I wanted to look up how much the land would be worth, if, for example the Feds wanted to sell it to California. [This MSN news report](http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/generalmoney/what-us-land-is-really-worth-state-by-state/ar-BBkTfZS#image=BBkGo1K%7C41) (by a “senior economist at the Federal Housing Finance Agency and previously at the Bureau of Economic Analysi”) had some interesting numbers: > [@](#): > > \> Value of land per acre: $39,092 > > \> Total value: $3.9 trillion (the highest) > > \> Total acres: 99.9 million (2nd largest) > > Nearly 52% of California was federally owned, the fifth largest figure nationwide and an exceptionally large percentage compared to other high-value states. The state’s almost 100 million acres were worth an estimated $3.9 trillion, making the state the most valuable overall. On a per acre basis, however, California was worth just over $39,000, the eighth most valuable in the country. > > A recent study estimates that the combined value of all land in the contiguous United States is worth nearly $23 trillion. The most valuable state, according to the survey, is California, which accounted for 17% of the total value of the 48 bordering states. The 52% and 99.9 million acres are a bit off from what I’ve seen elsewhere, but taking their numbers, it would cost California roughly $2 trillion to buy the federally-owned land within their borders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/955 "2017-01-27T23:56:57Z")
That’s about the price of a 3BR 2BA home in the SF Bay Area these days. But it will have double paned windows and granite countertops in the kitchen! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/956 "2017-01-28T00:15:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I was curious, and I wanted to look up how much the land would be worth, if, for example the Feds wanted to sell it to California. [This MSN news report](http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/generalmoney/what-us-land-is-really-worth-state-by-state/ar-BBkTfZS#image=BBkGo1K%7C41) (by a “senior economist at the Federal Housing Finance Agency and previously at the Bureau of Economic Analysi”) had some interesting numbers: > > The 52% and 99.9 million acres are a bit off from what I’ve seen elsewhere, but taking their numbers, it would cost California roughly $2 trillion to buy the federally-owned land within their borders. That’s assuming that the land is worth the same throughout the state. The reason the federal government owns much of the land is that it wasn’t valuable enough for anyone else to buy it even at dirt cheap or even free (with homesteading) prices. Even today it is not as valuable because no one lives there. I doubt that if the federal government were to sell off its lands in California outside of a Calexit that it would get _anywhere_ near 2 trillion, and that’s even assuming doing it piecemeal so as to not flood the market _and_ no insider sweet deals. In reality it would be even lower than that: I’d take a rough guess that the US couldn’t get more than very roughly 200 billion or so for all its California land. On the other hand, all the land that the government _doesn’t_ own in California, I can see being worth $2 trillion or more even without the buildings on it, because it is in better locations. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/957 "2017-01-28T00:32:21Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s assuming that the land is worth the same throughout the state. The reason the federal government owns much of the land is that it wasn’t valuable enough for anyone else to buy it even at dirt cheap or even free (with homesteading) prices. Even today it is not as valuable because no one lives there. While that’s a fair observation generally, I tried to point out that I was just using the study’s numbers for “average price per acre”. Certainly some of the crappy BLM land won’t hit that average, while the prime vistas in Yosemite and the beach-front property in San Diego that is Naval Base Coronado will probably well-exceed it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/958 "2017-01-28T00:37:16Z")
It should also require a super majority of California voters to choose independence. 50% +1 makes mo sense. Also, the possibility of an intra California Civil War is all to real. From the North/South split to a strong Mexican presence to the liberal west vs conservative east…there would be trouble brewing in an independent California. ---
**Author:** ![Phrozen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@Phrozen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phrozen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/959 "2017-01-28T01:07:03Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > (Snipped) > > Now basically, I’m done responding to your guesses and assumptions… Post if you like, but I have no desire to further engage you. How about questions? I’ve been trying to get your answer to a pretty simple wuestion and you’re flat ignoring me, or have no answer. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/960 "2017-01-28T01:12:02Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I have no idea, send him an email. Nah. Have you been misled to think that I actually care about this guy or his campaign? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=49)