# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1001 "2017-01-29T20:23:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And they don’t explain what “significant means”. The cite they give just states it without explaining. There’s always talk, but if you read the wikipedia article, it’s only been proposed in the legislature twice in the last 60 years and didn’t pass either time. One of the examples they give for post 2000 is a pair of frigging op-ed pieces. Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1002 "2017-01-29T21:28:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I believe the current accepted legal theory is that the Congress can allow a state to secede using the same procedure as admitting a state. And I believe an initiative could mandate that the Representatives and Senators must introduce such a bill in their respective Houses. I don’t believe it, and am not aware of any authority that does. Is there any sort of cite supporting your belief that congress can allow a state to secede using the same procedure as admitting a state, when the constitution explicitly gives congress the power to admit a state but not the power to expel one? ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1003 "2017-01-29T23:01:49Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > … I think mass protests and flooding the White House and Congress with individual messages is the way to go. Thank you, Sam. I was looking for an avenue to create a change. Make it so! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1004 "2017-01-29T23:02:44Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I don’t believe it, and am not aware of any authority that does. Is there any sort of cite supporting your belief that congress can allow a state to secede using the same procedure as admitting a state, when the constitution explicitly gives congress the power to admit a state but not the power to expel one? Me neither. States cannot secede, period. The Civil War settled that question once and for all, and there is nothing out there indicating otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1005 "2017-01-29T23:09:18Z")
So majority rule, except in cases of “civil rights”… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1006 "2017-01-29T23:11:18Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Thank you, Sam. > > I was looking for an avenue to create a change. > > Make it so! Anyone wanting to send a message to Trump [can do so here](https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact). I would advise keeping it civil, especially in light of the increasingly police-state nature of this administration. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1007 "2017-01-29T23:23:02Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > So majority rule, except in cases of “civil rights”… What does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1008 "2017-01-29T23:39:33Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Me neither. States cannot secede, period. The Civil War settled that question once and for all, and there is nothing out there indicating otherwise. That’s clearly not true. Texas v. White provides the avenue. California can easily stand on it’s own feet. In fact, when we unload the freeloading states from reaching our taxpayers, we’ll stand a few feet taller. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1009 "2017-01-29T23:42:27Z")
You’ll have to provide more details. And even if it did turn out to be true technically, which I still doubt, it would take a helluva lot more than Trump presidency to allow a state to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1010 "2017-01-30T00:00:11Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > You’ll have to provide more details. And even if it did turn out to be true technically, which I still doubt, it would take a helluva lot more than Trump presidency to allow a state to leave. There’s already twenty pages with of “details” in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1011 "2017-01-30T00:02:27Z")
Oh, one of _those_ threads, eh? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1012 "2017-01-30T01:55:48Z")
I will leave this thread here, for now, on the grounds that “gathering signatures” is part of the election process in states (such as California) that permit referendum initiatives. However, if it wanders over into the realm of “should they do it?” it is going to Great Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1013 "2017-01-30T04:28:29Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > That’s clearly not true. Texas v. White provides the avenue. The only 'avenue’s in Texas v White are constitutional amendment and war. Constitutional amendment requires 3/4 of the states, and war requires winning a war against the US. Plus the only mention in Texas v White is dicta and not part of the actual judgement. It’s very Freeman Of The Land to take a case that says 'you can’t secede without winning a war or passing a constitutional amendment and decide that it provides an avenue for peaceful secession that doesn’t need 3/4 of the states. > [@](#): > > California can easily stand on it’s own feet. In fact, when we unload the freeloading states from reaching our taxpayers, we’ll stand a few feet taller. So Calexit is going to require people to give up US citizenship now? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1014 "2017-01-30T05:20:31Z")
I think that Woodrow Wilson’s call for self determination of peoples supercedes Lincoln’s policy that the union is inviolate. No one is going to war to stop a state or group of states from seceding absent an overwhelming moral interest. So unless California is making slavery legal or something, if they vote to go, they go. And if other states follow, they go too. As for what message this sends to Trump, none at all unless California actually goes through with secession. At which point Trump chortles heartily, realizing that not only is his reelection guaranteed, but Congress becomes pretty deep red without California’s representatives, and the GOP majority in the Senate increases by 2. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1015 "2017-01-30T05:24:13Z")
As was explained in the other thread, the note in _Texas v White_ is [url=]dicta. IWO, not binding. It does not “provide a path” in the sense of a legal procedure. I’m surprised anyone is still peddling that. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1016 "2017-01-30T05:33:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that Woodrow Wilson’s call for self determination of peoples supercedes Lincoln’s policy that the union is inviolate. No one is going to war to stop a state or group of states from seceding absent an overwhelming moral interest. So unless California is making slavery legal or something, if they vote to go, they go. And if other states follow, they go too. I don’t think it does, and neither do the courts. I certainly hope the US is willing to go to war to prevent what’s either a foreign country or a revolutionary movement from claiming sovereignity over American citizens in their own home, and I’m pretty sure the US would do that. Plus, none of you advocating this simple ‘take a vote, then go’ model of secession answer what happens when smaller units than the state want to secede. There’s a significant conservative minority in CA, especially in the food producing regions (the liberal population is concentrated in the big cities). What happens in your hypothetical when CA’s agricultural land decides to secede and strike on it’s own, or even rejoin the US? Either you treat the state as an inviolate union and break the principle you just claimed was important, or they get to go too. A country can’t function if it allows a concept of ‘51% secession’ to work. > [@](#): > > As for what message this sends to Trump, none at all unless California actually goes through with secession. California can’t secede without 3/4 of the states allowing it or winning a war against the US. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1017 "2017-01-30T05:36:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that Woodrow Wilson’s call for self determination of peoples supercedes Lincoln’s policy that the union is inviolate. No one is going to war to stop a state or group of states from seceding absent an overwhelming moral interest. So unless California is making slavery legal or something, if they vote to go, they go. And if other states follow, they go too. The “overwhelming moral interest” is to prevent the USA for disintegrating and turning into South America. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1018 "2017-01-30T05:40:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The “overwhelming moral interest” is to prevent the USA for disintegrating and turning into South America. Heh by electing a standard banana-republic-type dictator. Yeah, good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1019 "2017-01-30T05:54:59Z")
Eh. Trump is temporary (and he’s not a dictator). Secession generally permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1020 "2017-01-30T05:55:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that Woodrow Wilson’s call for self determination of peoples supercedes Lincoln’s policy that the union is inviolate. No one is going to war to stop a state or group of states from seceding absent an overwhelming moral interest. So unless California is making slavery legal or something, if they vote to go, they go. And if other states follow, they go too. How about the moral interest of I am an American citizen and I expect my government to defend my interests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=52)