# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1021 "2017-01-30T06:15:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that Woodrow Wilson’s call for self determination of peoples supercedes Lincoln’s policy that the union is inviolate. No one is going to war to stop a state or group of states from seceding absent an overwhelming moral interest. So unless California is making slavery legal or something, if they vote to go, they go. And if other states follow, they go too. > > As for what message this sends to Trump, none at all unless California actually goes through with secession. At which point Trump chortles heartily, realizing that not only is his reelection guaranteed, but Congress becomes pretty deep red without California’s representatives, and the GOP majority in the Senate increases by 2. I think you are wrong. You don’t comprehend the disaster the secession genie, if unleashed, would bring. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1022 "2017-01-30T06:21:44Z")
If California bails on paying taxes to the Federal government, I would say that’s probably a more realistic and useful strategy. Though I don’t know exactly what latitude they have so far as that goes. Secession is stupid, though. Maybe if people had at least waited until Trump actually did bad things, it would have been a reasonable response. As it was, it was moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1023 "2017-01-30T09:04:02Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think you are wrong. You don’t comprehend the disaster the secession genie, if unleashed, would bring. Disaster to whom? Certainly not California. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1024 "2017-01-30T09:31:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > … > > As for what message this sends to Trump, none at all unless California actually goes through with secession. At which point Trump chortles heartily, realizing that not only is his reelection guaranteed, but Congress becomes pretty deep red without California’s representatives, and the GOP majority in the Senate increases by 2. Here’s what everyone misses when they speculate about future events in this. It’s a one step at a time movement. Sigh, vote, and move on from there. Let’s worry about the vote first, and getting the signatures. Living in Hispanic rich Southern California, and having Hispanics in my family, I know how they feel about immigration and walls, and bigotry and lies. I see the news of people south of the border loudly cheering President Nieto’s cancellation of his meeting with Trump, because Trump challenged him to pay for a wall. I see them calling for a boycott of products from the US. The family tie between Mexicans who live in Mexico and those who live in America is quite strong. Mexican’s say it this way; Screw with one \*\*\*\*\*, screw with the whole burrito. (slur part left out intentionally) I’ve heard that many times, and it always means the same thing, We stand together." Hispanics make up 39 to 40% of the state population. How many of those do you think would like an opportunity to stick it to Trump by signing a petition, or voting to leave? Or register just to do that? 8 million people in CA voted for Hillary. 8 million already despise the currently serving, lying, bigot egomaniac and will continue to be offended by him and his administration. How many of them will sign and support putting the measure on the ballot? How many of them will decide fixing something is not always the best idea, sometimes it’s time for a new car. No one knows, not even those who believe they can predict the future of this. No one knows what’s going to happen. The CA state AJ has passed the referendum to the Sec of State. Signature collection can now begin. Forms were printed for collecting over a million signatures, (hoping 60% are valid) by a printer sympathetic to the cause of secession. 13,000 of 115,000 supporters have volunteered to collect signatures. One step at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1025 "2017-01-30T09:34:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > … > Secession is stupid, though. Maybe if people had at least waited until Trump actually did bad things, it would have been a reasonable response. As it was, it was moronic. Bad things? Just how bad must they get? Start WW3? Destroy the economy? Start nationwide random stop and search? Declare Trump law and close the streets to all protests? What do you define as a “bad thing” other than every thing he said he would do on the campaign trail? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1026 "2017-01-30T09:44:16Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How about the moral interest of I am an American citizen and I expect my government to defend my interests. That’s never going to happen. You elect people to use their best judgment with respect to what your interests are and how, if at all, they should be defended. You’ve given up control to do anything more than sending angry emails. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1027 "2017-01-30T11:21:03Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Bad things? Just how bad must they get? Start WW3? Destroy the economy? Start nationwide random stop and search? Declare Trump law and close the streets to all protests? > > What do you define as a “bad thing” other than every thing he said he would do on the campaign trail? The secession movement started in November (I believe). At that point in time, he had said many things but he had not actually done any of them. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1028 "2017-01-30T12:38:04Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > One major problem with any idea of secession movements is that, once you allow secession, you don’t have a legitimate argument for denying secession yourself. It is a problem, but it doesn’t seem to occur in every case, as attested by numerous successful historical secessions. Finland seceded from Russia in 1917, Austria seceded from Germany in 1945, Slovenia and Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, and Belarus and Lithuania likewise seceded from the Soviet Union. The newly independent states weren’t exactly wracked with secessionist movements of their own. Barring conquest (as with Finland), they’ve remained largely intact. Of course, not every secession is so final. I’ve only quoted some examples that illustrate that division without further subdivision is possible. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1029 "2017-01-30T13:58:50Z")
Going to war to prevent secession today is madness. YOu worry about the country disentegrating if we allow secession, but a war to prevent it would bring about that very disentegration. As well as set our country back a century. In all likelihood, Republicans would simply see that as wonderful. No California means near permanent GOP majorities and a GOP lock on the White House, especially since a lot of Californians(mostly white) would probably leave. Ideally, we invite any Californians who want to remain in the US to cross the border for the first 180 days, and then any Californians who stay are stuck with it forever. The price of their secession could be an immigration ban, even. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1030 "2017-01-30T14:20:42Z")
Yes, going to war to prevent secession is madness, but the madness is in the secession part, not in the going to war part. War following secession is as inevitable as an anvil falling when released. And if you release that anvil over your own head, it’s mad, but the madness does not lie in gravity. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1031 "2017-01-30T14:41:07Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Me neither. States cannot secede, period. The Civil War settled that question once and for all, and there is nothing out there indicating otherwise. Except of course the cite I gave earlier > [@](#): > > When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution _or through consent of the States._ [emphasis added] ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1032 "2017-01-30T14:52:03Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > It is a problem, but it doesn’t seem to occur in every case, as attested by numerous successful historical secessions. Finland seceded from Russia in 1917, Austria seceded from Germany in 1945, Slovenia and Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, and Belarus and Lithuania likewise seceded from the Soviet Union. The newly independent states weren’t exactly wracked with secessionist movements of their own. Barring conquest (as with Finland), they’ve remained largely intact. Pretty sure you shouldn’t have Yugoslavia on a list of successful breakups even if Macedonia remains intaft. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1033 "2017-01-30T15:05:02Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > It is a problem, but it doesn’t seem to occur in every case, as attested by numerous successful historical secessions. Finland seceded from Russia in 1917, Austria seceded from Germany in 1945, Slovenia and Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia in the early 1990s, and Belarus and Lithuania likewise seceded from the Soviet Union. The newly independent states weren’t exactly wracked with secessionist movements of their own. Barring conquest (as with Finland), they’ve remained largely intact. Finland was an autonomous grand duchy within the Russian Empire from 1806 to 1917 and had its own language and laws. Yugoslavia was a post -WWI conglomeration of several independent countries that was only held together by outside efforts. Lithuania and Belarus had centuries of history as not being part of Russia, and are both distinct countries. Most of your examples are all formerly independent countries that were either directly controlled by an empire or a satellite of an empire that split off when the empire was no longer capable of functioning. Austria isn’t really even an example of secession (and was only part of Germany for seven years) - it’s separation from Germany was forced by the occupying powers. None of these are remotely like Calexit, where a region that has been a tightly integrated part of a country longer than anyone in the region has lived, that is part of the larger culture (same language and basic legal structure), and has no history of being an independent country decides that since 51% of its population doesn’t like the central government it can secede because of simple majority vote. Agricultural CA and urban CA have less in common than ‘CA as a whole’ does with ‘US as a whole’. Also, all of your examples involve the collapse of the larger country (Russia 1917, Germany 1945, Soviet Union 1990s), which has not actually happened in the US. So, sure, if you have a secession that’s based off of a region with distinct language and laws, and a distinct cultural identity for the region, you might not have any problem with smaller pieces of your region splitting off. But it’s not the same as ‘51% and go’ like Calexit. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1034 "2017-01-30T15:07:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Except of course the cite I gave earlier > [emphasis added] The ‘consent of the states’ means a constitutional amendment, there is no other mechanism for the states to consent to a state leaving the union. Removing a state from the union is a power specifically denied to Congress. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1035 "2017-01-30T15:11:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Pretty sure you shouldn’t have Yugoslavia on a list of successful breakups even if Macedonia remains intaft. You have misunderstood the purpose of my list. It is not about “successful breakups” of countries; it is about countries that seceded and did not subsequently give rise to secession movements of their own. What happens to other countries that may have seceded around the same time wasn’t part of the selection criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1036 "2017-01-30T15:26:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As was explained in the other thread, the note in _Texas v White_ is [url=]dicta. IWO, not binding. It does not “provide a path” in the sense of a legal procedure. > > I’m surprised anyone is still peddling that. To be honest _Texas v White_ is a clusterfuck of a decision but the alternative would be that once Congress admits a state that they cannot allow a state to secede. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1037 "2017-01-30T15:26:38Z")
Threads merged. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1038 "2017-01-30T15:29:31Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > You have misunderstood the purpose of my list. It is not about “successful breakups” of countries; it is about countries that seceded and did not subsequently give rise to secession movements of their own. What happens to other countries that may have seceded around the same time wasn’t part of the selection criteria. I know that. It still feels like it’s not a very useful example being as Macedonia is very small (pop of maybe 2 million and less than 10 000 sq miles) and was surrounded by a brutal civil war as the rest of the country split up. Sure technically it meets your criteria, I’m just saying it doesn’t further your point too strongly. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1039 "2017-01-30T15:33:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The ‘consent of the states’ means a constitutional amendment, there is no other mechanism for the states to consent to a state leaving the union. Removing a state from the union is a power specifically denied to Congress. Yep, that’s the good news. Absent the power being vested in the Federal Government, it must be vested in the states, or a new amendment could be added. Once again, you’re failing to see what’s really happening. It’s clear you don’t understand what the 2018 vote for “independence” is not that at all. I’ll try to set you straight on this. The first vote, the 2018 vote, is to amend the CA constitution to change the “US is the supreme law of the land” to reflect that it’s not. The 2019 vote is the vote to leave. 2 votes, 2 different issues, although both are steps on the road to secession. Consider also, that over 1 million people in the UK signed a petition to keep Trump out of the UK. 1 million, that’s all CalExit needs. Actually they need 60% of that, the extra is for those who signed buy weren’t registered to vote, etc. Do you know how easy it is to find someone who despises Trump in California and get them to sign? For a little “lighter-side-of-the-news” take on the campaign. The opposition has fired the first shot in a war of words? Oh noes… From [here.](http://stopthetakeover.org/calexit-california-secessionists-gather-signatures-another-mexico-take/) _California’s America-hating state government is exploring the mechanisms by which they would exchange being part of the United States for being part of Mexico. That’s a really bad deal and a dumb idea but those in power in the state have never been accused of being very bright or patriotic. They’re conniving and persistent, true enough, but that’s as far as it goes._ … \*Of course California, the home of many illegal aliens and even more Democrat lunacy, were they able to obtain independence from the United States, would then face a decision. Do they allow Mexicans free, at will, access to their new “independent” nation, overrunning it completely almost immediately, or do they restrict immigration and become the very beast they just supposedly vanquished through secession? \* Good thing that source isn’t the least bit bigoted. Mexicans overrunning the new RoCA. ETA, this is my favorite part… \* Breitbart noted that “‘Yes California’ and ‘California Nation’ now have 180 days — i.e. until July 25, 2017 — to gather valid signatures from 585,407 registered voters, 8% of the votes cast for governor in 2014. Otherwise, the measure will not qualify for the ballot.” Those voter nationalities, not merely their status as registered voters, needs to be scrutinized prior to being approved for the ballot as well. Something’s not right here and it’s pretty obvious who’s behind it.\* Those pesky Mexicans? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1040 "2017-01-30T15:40:39Z")
Actually psychonaut, on further reading, Macedonia had an ethnic Albanian insurgency in the 90’s that was resolved by giving them more autonomy. So it doesn’t really meet your criteria anyways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=53)