# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1101 "2017-02-05T19:50:20Z")
Assuming (for the imaginary sake of argument) that Californios could actually come up with a necessary majority to vote for secession and that the U.S. could be persuaded to let it go, that would still leave California with the probability of its own civil war. (See Ireland, Yugoslavia, and similar historical incidents. Czechoslovakia and the USSR are not good precedents because the seceding regions tended to already be rather harmonious in their desires, (Georgia/South Ossetia, Chechnya, Armenia/Azerbaijan, etc. notwithstanding).) However, if California ever pissed off the U.S., the U.S. would simply shut off the water being taken from the rest of the Southwest. (This is not a majority of the water California needs, but it would be a terrific hit on an already drought plagued state.) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1102 "2017-02-05T20:06:17Z")
I think with climate change California is going to have to figure out it’s water problems whether its part of the US or not. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1103 "2017-02-05T20:11:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, if California ever pissed off the U.S., the U.S. would simply shut off the water being taken from the rest of the Southwest. (This is not a majority of the water California needs, but it would be a terrific hit on an already drought plagued state.) I know America is the biggest dog on the planet but do you really think shutting down another country’s water supply simply out of malice would be without consequences? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1104 "2017-02-05T20:44:42Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So, I googled “is California the 6th largest economy” and what came back is that when you “factor in cost of living” California could be as low as 11th or something and “more like a European nation.” Whatever that means. The cost of living is high in California, and it’s population hasn’t been growing much in recent years, at least in part because housing is so freakin’ expensive. Housing is expensive in Paris and London. Universal health insurance makes up for a lot. What google hit were you looking at? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1105 "2017-02-05T20:55:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Housing is expensive in Paris and London. Universal health insurance makes up for a lot. What google hit were you looking at? Several, but here’s one for instance: [PolitiFact | Does California really have the '6th largest economy on planet Earth?'](http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2016/jul/26/kevin-de-leon/does-california-really-have-sixth-largest-economy-/) > [@](#): > > A more complex picture > > De León’s statement, made in a short 4-minute speech, did not include much context. > > When adjusting for the state’s high cost of living, California’s GDP ranking drops to 11th in the world, according to the California Legislative Analyst’s Office. > > … > > In California, “housing costs more; electricity and gas cost more; and even most goods and services cost more than the national average,” he wrote in a post on [RealClearMarkets.com](http://RealClearMarkets.com). “In many respects California’s cost of living is much more like a Western European nation than it is like the rest of the U.S. The widely reported global rankings ignore this reality.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1106 "2017-02-05T22:12:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, if California ever pissed off the U.S., the U.S. would simply shut off the water being taken from the rest of the Southwest. (This is not a majority of the water California needs, but it would be a terrific hit on an already drought plagued state.) The majority of the water SoCal needs. What a shame… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1107 "2017-02-05T22:46:05Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Several, but here’s one for instance: [PolitiFact | Does California really have the '6th largest economy on planet Earth?'](http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2016/jul/26/kevin-de-leon/does-california-really-have-sixth-largest-economy-/) Accepting that at face value, you must admit that even 11th biggest economy is still fairly impressive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1108 "2017-02-05T23:28:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I know America is the biggest dog on the planet but do you really think shutting down another country’s water supply simply out of malice would be without consequences? It’s a Trump world, now, and the Calexit movement is inspired by his election. If they get silly enough to pursue this, they should count on that response. I do not think that the issue will even arise because I seriously doubt that there are the necessary more than half a million registered Californian voters that will be willing to sign the petition before the late June deadline to get it on the ballot. All the anger and personal feuding on this thread over a situation that will never occur has been both amusing and saddening. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1109 "2017-02-06T00:33:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I know America is the biggest dog on the planet but do you really think shutting down another country’s water supply simply out of malice would be without consequences? Yes. Plus it wouldn’t be California’s water supply. It’d belong to the US. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1110 "2017-02-06T06:01:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. Plus it wouldn’t be California’s water supply. It’d belong to the US. :smack: Vietnam relies heavily on the Mekong River. Are they stealing China’s water? Is Hungary going to dam the Danube when they want to teach Serbia a lesson?? Most of California’s water that “comes from” Leftoverland is diverted near the Mexican border. Is it your assumption that Trumpia (what is the preferred name for the rump-U.S. ?) will abrogate the 1922 Colorado River Compact? How are you going to honor the 1944 Treaty with Mexico if you halt the Colordao River flow? What is your actual plan to deny California access to the Colorado River? Expand Lake Mead? Arizona also gets much of its water from its border with California. Is it your plan to poison the Colorado _after_ Lake Havasu (and aquaducts further downriver feeding Phoenix), but _before_ the All-American Canal? And, with the feeble Colorado getting even feebler, is it the plan for the Great Wall of Trumpia to be extended along the California-Arizona border? > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Why would CA want to seize military assets? You seem really confused about this. Is it your “plan” to become a military protectorate of Trumpia? What do you do when **octopus** follows up with his threat to quench the Colorado River? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1111 "2017-02-06T06:09:46Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Sarcasm duly noted, but that’s why I said “some” of the benefits. Of course, CA isn’t tiny, but it isn’t the size of the US. It will surely benefit from the economy of scale, but not the the extent that US Federal projects can… _ **Economy of scale has diminishing returns.** _ Tiny Luxemburg manages to have one of the very richest economies in the world; don’t expect California to suffer from being too small! (Indeed, if you believe the political “thought” dominant in Leftoverland, a _smaller_ country should be _more_ efficient. 🙂 ) But at least you noted my sarcasm. **Morgenstern** seemed to really believe that I was comparing California to other miniscule countries like Germany and Brazil. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1112 "2017-02-06T06:31:28Z")
For Brexit, it is estimated that two long years of complex negotiations will be needed to disentangle UK from EU, and that UK will be presented with a bill for many tens of billions of dollars. And EU-EC is a much looser union than the union connecting California to Leftoverland. UK already has its own central bank, its own military, its own diplomatic corps, pension system, etc. Disentangling California from Leftoverland would be hugely complicated, even if done amicably. With the Trumpsters in full control of Leftoverland — indeed that’s the main reason for the secession movement’s surge in popularity, no? — one can hardly expect dissolution to be amicable. What is the plan if some super-majority of Californians vote for secession and Trump says No? I guess they’ll just say _“oh! … well nevermind then”_ since the threat of force is off the table: [QUOTE=Morgenstern] Why would CA want to seize military assets? You seem really confused about this. [/QUOTE] To me the whole topic seems very … well, Alternate. :rolleyes: Speaking of #Brexit, I notice that 3/4 of UK’s young people want Remain. I really do not understand why the Queen and Her Government don’t stage a “Second Referendum in case you Voters have Come to your Senses” or such. (At least with November 8’s #SanityExit, we have the excuse that the only obvious way out is a Second Amendment Solution.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1113 "2017-02-06T07:31:50Z")
They don’t even need to do that. Parliament has to vote on Brexit, so they could overrule the referendum (which was never binding anyway). ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1114 "2017-02-06T10:06:26Z")
Can you knock it off with that damn “facepalm” smiley, please? It doesn’t enhance your argument in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1115 "2017-02-06T16:09:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > For Brexit, it is estimated that two long years of complex negotiations will be needed to disentangle UK from EU, and that UK will be presented with a bill for many tens of billions of dollars. And EU-EC is a much looser union than the union connecting California to Leftoverland. UK already has its own central bank, its own military, its own diplomatic corps, pension system, etc. CA has banks (state chartered). It has a pension system (17% of the budget IIRC). Diplomat corps, wow, look how easy that was for Trump. Apparently any idiot is qualified for that one. > [@septimus](#): > > Disentangling California from Leftoverland would be hugely complicated, even if done amicably. With the Trumpsters in full control of Leftoverland — indeed that’s the main reason for the secession movement’s surge in popularity, no? — one can hardly expect dissolution to be amicable. What is the plan if some super-majority of Californians vote for secession and Trump says No? I guess they’ll just say _“oh! … well nevermind then”_ since the threat of force is off the table: > > To me the whole topic seems very … well, Alternate. :rolleyes: Force was - ready for this - NEVER on the table. Not once has anyone suggested that violence/riot/guns/force was appropriate. I’ve only said that, what, 25 times? Somehow you;ve missed that point. We’ve gone through the other points you make too many times to revisit it. Let me point out one big thing 99% of the people posting here are missing. Time. It’s on CA’s side. It’s a stepped process. Each step moves CA one step closer. 1st step, change the CA constitution. 2018 2nd step, a year later, vote for independence. 2019 Now, assuming those 2 are successful, then there is NO TIME LIMIT for the rest of the process. 3rd step. Begin working on the separation process. 2019, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 etc. If 1 and 2 pass, the process continues. It continues, restarts if necessary, from the 2019 point, because the framework is set. Hopefully it takes less than 4 years, or god forbid 8 years, because We’d really like to get out before Trump totally fucks up what we’ve got left, like he’ll do with the rest of the US. > [@septimus](#): > > Speaking of #Brexit, I notice that 3/4 of UK’s young people want Remain. I really do not understand why the Queen and Her Government don’t stage a “Second Referendum in case you Voters have Come to your Senses” or such. (At least with November 8’s #SanityExit, we have the excuse that the only obvious way out is a Second Amendment Solution.) Many of us feel Trump is the worst thing to happen to California since the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. We need to keep the Orange plague out of CA as much as we can, and firing him seems to be an appropriate way. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1116 "2017-02-06T16:11:18Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Most of California’s water that “comes from” Leftoverland is diverted near the Mexican border. Is it your assumption that Trumpia (what is the preferred name for the rump-U.S. ?) will abrogate the 1922 Colorado River Compact? The US will not have to do anything the abrogate the the 1922 Colorado River Compact, because it’s an interstate compact. Once Calexitfornia becomes an independent country, it’s no longer a US state and so no longer part of any interstate agreements. This is pretty basic to the concept of seceding and become an independent country, but Calexit supporters don’t seem to understand that being another country means you’re no longer a state and no longer get the benefits of being a state. US states like Arizona have contested the terms of the 1922 Colorado River compact in court, and some states like Nevada would really like to get more water from the river today. Once Calexitifornia is no longer a part of the compact those states would push strongly for Cal-less US to allocate more water to them, and there wouldn’t be any real internal opposition to it. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1117 "2017-02-06T16:15:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _ **Economy of scale has diminishing returns.** _ Tiny Luxemburg manages to have one of the very richest economies in the world; don’t expect California to suffer from being too small! (Indeed, if you believe the political “thought” dominant in Leftoverland, a _smaller_ country should be _more_ efficient. 🙂 ) > > But at least you noted my sarcasm. **Morgenstern** seemed to really believe that I was comparing California to other miniscule countries like Germany and Brazil. :eek: Because those countries have any relevance whatsoever to CA? I didn’t see that either. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1118 "2017-02-06T16:15:33Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Force was - ready for this - NEVER on the table. Not once has anyone suggested that violence/riot/guns/force was appropriate. I’ve only said that, what, 25 times? You’ve also been vague on what Calexitfornia will do about the 45% of it’s land that the US government owns, which includes several military bases. You have implied that Calexitfornia will seize the land, since you’ve talked about charging the US rent on it. I’m sure you will just dance around the issue and make spurious claims about me like you have been for more than twenty pages, but the fact is your position is a lot less clear than you would like people to think. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1119 "2017-02-06T16:23:12Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The US will not have to do anything the abrogate the the 1922 Colorado River Compact, because it’s an interstate compact. Once Calexitfornia becomes an independent country, it’s no longer a US state and so no longer part of any interstate agreements. This is pretty basic to the concept of seceding and become an independent country, but Calexit supporters don’t seem to understand that being another country means you’re no longer a state and no longer get the benefits of being a state. > > US states like Arizona have contested the terms of the 1922 Colorado River compact in court, and some states like Nevada would really like to get more water from the river today. Once Calexitifornia is no longer a part of the compact those states would push strongly for Cal-less US to allocate more water to them, and there wouldn’t be any real internal opposition to it. You are wrong again. The short story. Arizona was late to that agreement. They agreed that they would take what’s left over. Then mexico complained that there was no water left in the Colorado when it reached them. Appears that the US overreached it’s authority and poor Arizona had to give up water when water was in short supply. See, it’s has international reach. Further, with respect to the water issue, per Cal Nat Party. 90% of the water California uses comes from within California Our water infrastructure leaks millions of gallons a year but we don’t have funds to fix it because so much of our money goes to subsidies and waste by the US government. The American government doesn’t believe climate change is real, but that’s not stopping climate change from drying up the Colorado river. Growing populations up-river also mean less and less water is available to us. So staying with the status quo will dry up LA and San Diego. Recent studies in Southern California show the region could be self sufficient if we invested in water recycling, rainwater capture, and other simple solutions. The same goes for most California cities. Our farms also have massive potential to save water by upgrading to modern more efficient irrigation systems. We want to help them do so. This is a win for farmers who will save huge amounts of money on water and a win for our whole nation. Plus, desalinization is improving and remains a viable option. Water is a non issue to an independent CA. We’ll do fine. Remember, your military bases located herein get their water from us. What will they do, ship it in? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1120 "2017-02-06T16:29:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I am not following your logic. If you agree California is a net contributor doesn’t that include Highway funds? Doesn’t that include at least most of the expensive shit the federal government pays for? If California was shouldering those costs it would also not be transferring money to the US so wouldn’t it mostly be a wash? The whole ‘net contributor’ thing doesn’t mean nearly as much as Calexit supporters want to make it mean. A very large portion of the balance sheet for ‘net contributor’ is Social Security benefits, so a lot of what ‘net contributor’ really means is that a good chunk of people work in California but retire in states with a lower cost of living. Splitting out from Social Security would be very complicated to negotiate, and it’s pretty unlikely that California would come out ahead of the deal since the US would have the upper hand in negotiations. Also, a lot of other Federal programs are things that California derives great benefit from while being in the US. The more sparsely populated states around CA get a disproportionate amount of highway (and railway IIRC) funds, but a lot of CA’s economy involves transporting goods on those highways to the rest of the US for profit. If Calexit were to happen, Calexitfornia would likely have to continue to pay for those highways, though the money would be collected in the forms of tolls or tariffs on vehicles or goods crossing the border. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=57)