# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1121 "2017-02-06T16:42:24Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You’ve also been vague on what Calexitfornia will do about the 45% of it’s land that the US government owns, which includes several military bases. You have implied that Calexitfornia will seize the land, since you’ve talked about charging the US rent on it. I’m sure you will just dance around the issue and make spurious claims about me like you have been for more than twenty pages, but the fact is your position is a lot less clear than you would like people to think. Again, you’ve missed everything already said on the matter. Your lack of unique material is why I typically avoid responding to you. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1122 "2017-02-06T16:44:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The whole ‘net contributor’ thing doesn’t mean nearly as much as Calexit supporters want to make it mean. A very large portion of the balance sheet for ‘net contributor’ is Social Security benefits, so a lot of what ‘net contributor’ really means is that a good chunk of people work in California but retire in states with a lower cost of living. Splitting out from Social Security would be very complicated to negotiate, and it’s pretty unlikely that California would come out ahead of the deal since the US would have the upper hand in negotiations. Tell us what it really means then because I suspect you have no idea. > [@Pantastic](#): > > Also, a lot of other Federal programs are things that California derives great benefit from while being in the US. The more sparsely populated states around CA get a disproportionate amount of highway (and railway IIRC) funds, but a lot of CA’s economy involves transporting goods on those highways to the rest of the US for profit. If Calexit were to happen, Calexitfornia would likely have to continue to pay for those highways, though the money would be collected in the forms of tolls or tariffs on vehicles or goods crossing the border. Again, more speculative and unsubstantiated opinions with 0 basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1123 "2017-02-06T17:34:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, you’ve missed everything already said on the matter. Your lack of unique material is why I typically avoid responding to you. And you still refuse to respond to his comments. And when Californians rise up and overthrow any pretenders who actually try to leave the US, whatcha gonna do? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1124 "2017-02-06T17:34:05Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, more speculative and unsubstantiated opinions with 0 basis in reality. Why is it that when people tell you what various laws actually mean, you dismiss it as “just your opinion, man,” but you get to freely wax on about how California, once freed of its oppression, is going to have desalination plants up the wazoo and magical farms that are more efficient than anyone can imagine? Double standard much? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1125 "2017-02-06T17:58:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Accepting that at face value, you must admit that even 11th biggest economy is still fairly impressive. Definitely, plus we have Silicon Valley and Hollywood, which makes CA important to the whole world. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1126 "2017-02-06T18:11:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Hopefully it takes less than 4 years, or god forbid 8 years, because We’d really like to get out before Trump totally fucks up what we’ve got left, like he’ll do with the rest of the US. Hey, I hope you guys are gone (or in prison) for the 2020 & 2024 elections too. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1127 "2017-02-06T18:13:59Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Definitely, plus we have Silicon Valley and Hollywood, which makes CA important to the whole world. Personally, I think Hollywood has been overselling their own importance for quite a while now. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1128 "2017-02-06T18:49:04Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Definitely, plus we have Silicon Valley and Hollywood, which makes CA important to the whole world. Those places have intellectual property that is easily relocated. No one knows what the economic climate would be in an independent California. Taxes would be much higher. Companies would have a lot of leverage to play Cali and the USA off of each other. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1129 "2017-02-06T18:55:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Hey, I hope you guys are gone (or in prison) for the 2020 & 2024 elections too. I’ll bet you do. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1130 "2017-02-06T18:56:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why is it that when people tell you what various laws actually mean, you dismiss it as “just your opinion, man,” but you get to freely wax on about how California, once freed of its oppression, is going to have desalination plants up the wazoo and magical farms that are more efficient than anyone can imagine? > > Double standard much? Again, opinion and facts are different things. I dismiss repetitive opinion rather quickly. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1131 "2017-02-06T18:58:26Z")
So you are dismissing your posts as well? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1132 "2017-02-06T19:00:40Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Those places have intellectual property that is easily relocated. No one knows what the economic climate would be in an independent California. Taxes would be much higher. Companies would have a lot of leverage to play Cali and the USA off of each other. Again. An opinion. taxes are projected to fall when CA no longer supports the less fortunate states. Hre, from CNP \*We have the 5th or 6th biggest economy on the planet (depending on exchange rates – we’re basically dead even with Britain) and the 35th largest population. We are bigger than Canada in terms of both population and economy. To be blunt, California doesn’t need America. We are radically over-taxed. Because the cost of living is higher here so a person in Ohio making $50k/year is solidly middle class and a person here at the same pay rate is just barely hanging on. That means Californians are automatically in higher tax brackets than people with equivalent standards of living in other states. It also means our people are less likely to qualify for benefits they need and that we disproportionately pay for. \* Once CA is relieved of that wasteful Federal government, things like healthcare, education, infrastructure and providing for the needy can take place as we see necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1133 "2017-02-06T19:08:19Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Again, you’ve missed everything already said on the matter. Your lack of unique material is why I typically avoid responding to you. You’ve made three responses to me, all of which lack substance, while declaiming to the thread that you typically avoid responding to me. It’s an interesting contrast. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1134 "2017-02-06T19:10:04Z")
You forget defense. You ignore having to pay for water and petroleum based products. You ignore the almost immediate civil war between Californians who want to remain Americans and the traitors. Then the new California would still be liable for its share of the national debt as its price for independence. Then there would be the massive costs of creating a bunch of new agencies that would mirror the old federal government. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1135 "2017-02-06T19:12:02Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You’ve made three responses to me, all of which lack substance, while declaiming to the thread that you typically avoid responding to me. It’s an interesting contrast. I keep looking at your posts thinking one of them may have some merit or be founded in truth and not simply guesses and assumptions. I’ll keep looking though. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1136 "2017-02-06T19:18:47Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You forget defense. You ignore having to pay for water and petroleum based products. You ignore the almost immediate civil war between Californians who want to remain Americans and the traitors. Then the new California would still be liable for its share of the national debt as its price for independence. Then there would be the massive costs of creating a bunch of new agencies that would mirror the old federal government. Who pays for water and petroleum now? We do. Yep, we don’t get fed subsidies for that. Civil war between Californian’s. Comedy gold. Yep, we’d have to carry our share of the national debt, let see, 2% of the total states, 2% of the debt fair enough, or do you want us to pay for the poor states too? Also, in exchange for assuming a share of the US debt, we will negotiate for a share of the US assets within CA. Two way street ya know. New agencies. You have no idea how big CA’s government is. We have agencies for everything the US has given up on, like climate change. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1137 "2017-02-06T19:27:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Those places have intellectual property that is easily relocated. No one knows what the economic climate would be in an independent California. Taxes would be much higher. Companies would have a lot of leverage to play Cali and the USA off of each other. Could be. I keep hearing every so often how it’s too expensive and earthquake prone and Silicon Valley will move east, but it never seems to happen for whatever reason. Hollywood seems to care more about what China’s audience thinks about blockbuster movies these days. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1138 "2017-02-06T19:34:52Z")
What I think would be interesting to hear is how Calexit plans to deal with the major, unarguable issues that keep getting swept under the rug. The attitude from supporters seems to be ‘well, if we get 51% of CA to vote on Calexit, then we can go and set our own terms’, but: 1. How does Calexit deal with the sizeable portion of the state that doesn’t want to leave? Over 30% of CAs eligible voters voted for Trump, for example, and I don’t think they’re keen on living in Calexitfornia. These are United States citizens who have a right to expect the US government to protect them from being forced to live in a foreign government, but Calexit supporters don’t seem to acknowledge that they are there. They seem to feel that if they get a Calexit ballot initiative and 51% vote, that it’s a done deal. 2. How does Calexit negotiate a workable exit from the US when the US holds all the cards in the negotiation? You’ve still got the situation where 51% of California is trying to convince 3/4 of the US states to agree to let them leave, but where the 51% of California expects to get a good deal on leaving. Even if you had a situation where the rest of the US wasn’t majorly opposed to CA leaving, there’s a huge incentive for them to impose lopsided conditions on the exit. Even without the US explicitly trying to profit off of the deal, there’s a lot of stuff that Calexit supporters want, like independence from US banking regulations, that the US could demand as a condition of exit, and a lot of stuff that CA would want (like Social Security money) that the US wouldn’t be inclined to give up. Also note that, aside from CA needing a 3/4 vote from the States to secede, the US has veto power over them joining the United Nations. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1139 "2017-02-06T19:36:34Z")
As a Californian, I would be one of the first to take up arms. California would have absolutely zero leverage in any negotiation with the Federal government. California has no mechanism to force the Feds to give up its property. We would have to negotiate and pay for most of our water. We would either have to restart offshore drilling or buy our petroleum from someone else. We have no state equivalent of the post office, the SSA, the FBI or the armed forces. We are also living in earthquake territory. When the next big one hits, we won’t have the rest of the country to help with reconstruction. We won’t have the clout to borrow like the Feds can. This would make a Trump Adminstration look like golden years. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1140 "2017-02-06T19:38:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Yep, we’d have to carry our share of the national debt, let see, 2% of the total states, 2% of the debt fair enough, or do you want us to pay for the poor states too? Also, in exchange for assuming a share of the US debt, we will negotiate for a share of the US assets within CA. Two way street ya know. BTW, this is what I was talking about in my last post. Morgenstern talks like CA will have the whip hand in any deal and can essentially write it’s own ticket, when the opposite is true. If CA starts the discussion at only accepting 2% of Federal debt, how do they expect to get 3/4 of the other states to vote for that, purely on pragmatic grounds? All of this high-handed bargaining with the US doesn’t make sense for an entity that needs 3/4 agreement from the US to not have its leaders arrested. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=58)