# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1321 "2017-02-13T03:41:24Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Well, they did have Schwarzenegger as governor. Perhaps they’ve decided the best way to secede is to crush their enemies, see the enemies driven before them, and to hear the lamentations of the women. Oh, I knew I got the quote wrong as soon as I wrote it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1322 "2017-02-13T06:43:09Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The fact that people voted against Trump doesn’t mean they wish to end the United States, or worse to radically change the electoral map so that they are in a United States that loses all of California’s support for Democrats. Do you really think you’re going to get a lot of support for giving Trump supporters a greater majority in the US from areas that don’t like Trump in the first place? In one fantasy, with the entire West Coast and Northeast united as Western America (or should we call it Patriotic America to avoid geographic confusion?), in possession of the U.N. building, the financial centers of lower Manhattan, U.S.'s four largest container ports, and receiving strong support from D.C.'s own self-government, the Trumpists will be less smug. The Westerners will take the “moral high ground”, declaring the November elections invalid, setting up a new Capital in Boston, and declaring the Flyover states to be in rebellion! At that point Western America and Japan will be tied for world’s 3rd largest economy. Flyoverland will be #2 behind China, and falling fast. To get back in, and eliminate the tariffs charged by Western on Flyover goods passing through Western ports, _ **Flyoverland will beg to be readmitted to the Union, offering to reform the Electoral College** _, making it less likely that the November 8 tragedy will be repeated. Of course I’m being ironic. Secession will be disastrous for both the Trumpists of Flyoverland and for the Patriots of the West. Ironic or not, we may be starting down the road already, with Trump and Californian Patriots each threatening to sequester billions of dollars. Is there a thread discussing how that may play out? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1323 "2017-02-13T06:58:25Z")
CA isn’t threatening that. One legislator is “looking into the possibility” that it could be done. With [Jerry Brown seeking federal disaster aid for the flooding](http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/11/gov-jerry-brown-asks-potential-nemesis-president-trump-for-aid/) we’re experiencing, I doubt he’s going to be threatening sequestering any funds. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1324 "2017-02-13T12:35:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People are saying they support the use of force to enforce existing law. That is not fairly characterized as “drooling over the thought of some good old fashioned slaughter”. Of course so much of what is being posted in this thread is fantasy and jokes, I guess there might be some people talking about crushing their enemies and raping their women. You might take that seriously. I don’t. If 3/4 of the states agree to Calexit, the existing law will be California is allowed to exit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1325 "2017-02-13T14:29:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If 3/4 of the states agree to Calexit, the existing law will be California is allowed to exit. If I discover gold in my backyard tomorrow, I’ll be rich. More to the point, though, I’m not aware of anyone advocating the use of force if the exit is done legally. It’s just that most of us see the possibility of a legal exit as being so slim as to not being worth consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1326 "2017-02-13T16:04:19Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It could, but doesn’t have to. Various parts of California have tried in the past, and failed. That’s a complete cop-out of an answer. Either explain how the smug and moralistic arguments put forward for Calexit would somehow not apply to OrCoExit, or admit that it’s not actually a fallacious argument to point out that said arguments do apply. And remember, if Calexitfornia endorses the use force against OrCoExit or any other area secession group, they’re just as awful and violent and prison-gang-like as our Calexit pals say I am. > [@](#): > > It’s never turned into anything the LAPD thugs had to suppress. And we know, those guys are assholes. We all know that. I’ve had cop friends from lots of different departments around the state and they’ll tell you “yeah, LAPD is a bunch of yahoos.” So how can you claim that Calexit is nonviolent when they will have “thugs”, “assholes”, and “yahoos” using violence to enforce their will? The whole smug ‘you guys are so mean for fantasizing about violence’ falls apart when Calexit is the ones who have the LAPD at the ready for busting heads. > [@CarnalK](#): > > You must find it a little tiring that despite the seccession plan being: referendum, legislation, get 3/4 of the states to agree, we still have people saying “no, we will crush you”. That’s the line they feed, but the plan also includes refusing to pay US taxes (before an exit), charging the US government rent on land that it already owns, blocking US access to land that it already owns, and more aggressive and blatantly illegal actions. And while the ‘plan’ is to get 3/4 of the states to agree, Calexit supporters have yet to put forth anything resembling a plan for how that will happen, it’s along the lines of ‘we’ll cite the UN charter about decolonization and that means we’ll win!’ which doesn’t make sense, or ‘we’ll hold US military bases hostage until they agree to let us go’ which is a blatantly hostile and illegal action (either armed rebellion or an act of war). ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1327 "2017-02-13T21:42:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That’s the law today. California is lawfully part of the US today. You’re seeking to change one law, but maintaining that other laws will not change during the process of secession? That’s facile. > > I have literally no clue what leads you to this idea. If an FBI agent lives in Los Angeles, how does his salary not benefit California in the same way that a Social Security payment benefits California? I eagerly await your answer, and am preparing for a good belly laugh. > > A widely respected liberal think tank says otherwise. > > There is no contract between the government and Social Security recipients. The payment of benefits is based on law, which can be changed by Congress and the President. Without California’s large representation in Congress, it is naive to believe that the remaining 49 states would want to send about $90 billion in Social Security benefits to Californians who want the benefits of being Americans without any of the responsibilities. > > I don’t think that you actually realize that you think that 3/4th of states will sign up to a deal in which the US loses something north of $4 trillion in revenue, and agrees to support more than $1 trillion in retirement benefits (over the next ten years, thatbis), in order to allow California to become independent. What is the incentive for any state to take you up on your proposal? It would be part of the process of negotiating some degree of independence. In other words, agree to our reasonable demands that SS is grandfathered in, or we will stop letting you use our ports to get your cheap stuff from China. We will deport any and all people who continue to insist they are US citizens. We will not let you fly over California, or our sister independent states, Oregon and Ranier, to get to Hawaii. Your sports teams will be taxed 50% of their income to continue to say they are in the American or National Leagues… In other words, during the process of negotiation, the US gets some things it wants, the Californians get some things they want, and they agree to revisit some nagging issues that don’t seem tractable at the moment. Give it 30 or 40 years, and no one will be alive to collect SS. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1328 "2017-02-13T21:50:21Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > It would be part of the process of negotiating some degree of independence. In other words, agree to our reasonable demands that SS is grandfathered in, or we will stop letting you use our ports to get your cheap stuff from China. **We will deport any and all people who continue to insist they are US citizens. We will not let you fly over California, or our sister independent states, Oregon and Ranier, to get to Hawaii.** Your sports teams will be taxed 50% of their income to continue to say they are in the American or National Leagues… In other words, during the process of negotiation, the US gets some things it wants, the Californians get some things they want, and they agree to revisit some nagging issues that don’t seem tractable at the moment. > > Give it 30 or 40 years, and no one will be alive to collect SS. Wow, California has changed a lot since I last lived there. I had no idea that ethnic cleansing was on the table, or that California might specifically reject the most important provision of the Convention on International Civil Aviation! Because I thought California was generally a multicultural sort of place that valued diplomacy and the integrity of international treaties! Did Steve Bannon take over California when I wasn’t paying attention? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1329 "2017-02-13T21:59:16Z")
So the US can “pass any law it wants” and fuck over SS payers but if California passes “any law it wants” in response to the US “passing any law it wants” it’s now genocide or something. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1330 "2017-02-13T22:31:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Did Steve Bannon take over California when I wasn’t paying attention? No the movement is just led by someone that is Bannon-esque. A friendly towards Russia, anti-globalization (and wants to tear down the current system), Trump voter. I give you the President of Yes California - [Louis Marinelli](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-12-07/how-to-make-california-great-secede-with-a-little-help-from-putin) …and we think Spicer has a tough job . Imagine the poor bastard that will have to try and explain Marinelli to the press if they make it onto the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1331 "2017-02-13T22:33:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So the US can “pass any law it wants” and fuck over SS payers but if California passes “any law it wants” in response to the US “passing any law it wants” it’s now genocide or something. The US can’t pass any law it wants. If the proposed laws are constitutional and are consistent with our treaty obligations, then the US has very broad discretion on what laws it may want to pass. Eligibility for an entitlement program has no constitutional or treaty protections that I’m aware of. Same with California. The California Constitution says that California shall not discriminate on the basis of national origin. Sure sounds like laws targeting people who consider themselves American would run afoul of that, right? Sort of like how a certain orange president was smacked down by courts for doing something similar? But you must think that Trump is on the right track, because you’re okay with California taking similar policies, eh? And as far as trying to institute a no-fly zone over the Western states, that’s an awfully aggressive negotiating position. It’s really mostly countries like North Korea that seek to prohibit peaceful commercial overflights, as authorized by the treaty I mentioned, so I’m just surprised that California would threaten policies that are essentially sanctions on the United States. That’s not really a “California can’t pass such a law,” it’s just an awfully provocative, almost war-like position on that issue. My reaction is more like, “Are you sure you want to pick this kind of fight?” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1332 "2017-02-13T22:45:00Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > No the movement is just led by someone that is Bannon-esque. A friendly towards Russia, anti-globalization (and wants to tear down the current system), Trump voter. I give you the President of Yes California - [Louis Marinelli](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-12-07/how-to-make-california-great-secede-with-a-little-help-from-putin) > > …and we think Spicer has a tough job . Imagine the poor bastard that will have to try and explain Marinelli to the press if they make it onto the ballot. And he initially came to a certain degree of prominence by spearheading the fight against gay marriage. He later changed his mind. He’s kind of a weird bird and I don’t feel comfortable with him leading the Calexit charge. It would have to have a ton of credible, intellectually respectable support to seriously get behind it. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1333 "2017-02-13T22:48:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Same with California. The California Constitution says that California shall not discriminate on the basis of national origin. Sure sounds like laws targeting people who consider themselves American would run afoul of that, right? Sort of like how a certain orange president was smacked down by courts for doing something similar? But you must think that Trump is on the right track, because you’re okay with California taking similar policies, eh? Trump’s notmuslim ban is hardly the same thing as people having to eventually choose their citizenship after succession. The citizens of Czechoslovakia had to work that out. British loyalists had to become US citizens, did they not? Wow, our entire nation was just-like-Trump! ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1334 "2017-02-13T23:22:18Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > It would be part of the process of negotiating some degree of independence. In other words, agree to our reasonable demands that SS is grandfathered in, or we will stop letting you use our ports to get your cheap stuff from China. The problem with this hardball negotiation stance that Calexiters like to fantasize about in this thread is that the US holds all the cards in the negotiation. California has to convince 3/4 of US states to vote for the secession idea, or it simply dies in the water. Threatening to cut off US use of ports doesn’t work, because a US state is not allowed to unilaterally embargo international commerce, and Calexitfornia is still a US state until it gets done negotiating an exit with all of the other states. > [@](#): > > We will deport any and all people who continue to insist they are US citizens. We will not let you fly over California, or our sister independent states, Oregon and Ranier, to get to Hawaii. This highlights what I said about the non-violence claim being nonsense, BTW. How are you going to deport people from their homes without threatening them with force? How are you going to enforce a no-fly zone without an air force? Aside from the fact that the fantasy now includes other states, how are you going to get them to go along with your no-fly enforcement when you don’t have anything to offer them and don’t have a military of your own? It’s also a little bit contradictory that, on one hand the most vocal Calexiter claims that Calexitfornians would be dual US citizens, while on the other Calexitfornia will be engaging in large scale (and somehow nonviolent) ethnic cleansing against US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1335 "2017-02-13T23:59:28Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Trump’s notmuslim ban is hardly the same thing as people having to eventually choose their citizenship after succession. The citizens of Czechoslovakia had to work that out. British loyalists had to become US citizens, did they not? Wow, our entire nation was just-like-Trump! The post I was responding to was proposing ways to punish the US if the US did not agree to provide entitlement spending to people who refuse to pay taxes to support that entitlement. That has nothing to do with how you are now phrasing the issue. I’m not aware of new countries carrying out mass deportations of people who do not conform to a particular national identity. Even in the case of Israel, to the best of my understanding, Arabs left on their own volition due to their political views, not because Israel sought to deport them. Do you have actual cites of new countries deporting people of particular national origins? For example, how many British people were deported after the Revolutionary War? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1336 "2017-02-14T00:03:29Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > It would be part of the process of negotiating some degree of independence. In other words, agree to our reasonable demands that SS is grandfathered in, or we will stop letting you use our ports to get your cheap stuff from China. We will deport any and all people who continue to insist they are US citizens. We will not let you fly over California, or our sister independent states, Oregon and Ranier, to get to Hawaii. Your sports teams will be taxed 50% of their income to continue to say they are in the American or National Leagues… In other words, during the process of negotiation, the US gets some things it wants, the Californians get some things they want, and they agree to revisit some nagging issues that don’t seem tractable at the moment. > > Give it 30 or 40 years, and no one will be alive to collect SS. Do you envision these negotiations taking place _after_ 3/4 of US states have agreed to secession, or before? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1337 "2017-02-14T01:40:07Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > It would be part of the process of negotiating some degree of independence. In other words, agree to our reasonable demands that SS is grandfathered in, or we will stop letting you use our ports to get your cheap stuff from China. We will deport any and all people who continue to insist they are US citizens. We will not let you fly over California, or our sister independent states, Oregon and Ranier, to get to Hawaii. Your sports teams will be taxed 50% of their income to continue to say they are in the American or National Leagues… In other words, during the process of negotiation, the US gets some things it wants, the Californians get some things they want, and they agree to revisit some nagging issues that don’t seem tractable at the moment. > > Give it 30 or 40 years, and no one will be alive to collect SS. You seem to think that we born and bred Californians wont take up our arms and start shooting traitors who attempt to steal our birthright. Some of the ports here actually belong to the USA. California has no modern armaments to implement any of that. Without the US market and with the US naval blockade of California’s remaining ports, California’s economy will crash and CalExit proponents will be hanging from bridges and lampposts ala French collaborators. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1338 "2017-02-14T02:37:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People are saying they support the use of force to enforce existing law. That is not fairly characterized as “drooling over the thought of some good old fashioned slaughter”. How would you characterize this tidbit? > [@madsircool](#): > > You seem to think that we born and bred Californians wont take up our arms and start shooting traitors who attempt to steal our birthright. > \ > Without the US market and with the US naval blockade of California’s remaining ports, California’s economy will crash and CalExit proponents will be hanging from bridges and lampposts ala French collaborators. I know it came after your post but… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1339 "2017-02-14T03:04:31Z")
I would be very interested to know how many of these large California corporations are actually incorporated in California. That might prove to be a wee bit of a problem, given that they are going to be incorporated, and owned by a huge margin, by U.S. investors. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/1340 "2017-02-14T04:28:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How would you characterize this tidbit? > I know it came after your post but… First part: Do you really think that there aren’t millions of Californians from most of the land area of the state that won’t resist this violently? You think that millions won’t fight back because some loons in the Bay Area and LA decide they want to be independent? Part 2 was simply in response to what the above poster said that Cali would do to strong arm the US government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=68)