# I joined, and pledged support to Yes California today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 11, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467 "2016-11-11T04:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/141 "2016-11-15T06:12:42Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here’s a little hint for you. > > Let’s start with a definition you seem to be missing. > > _Treason. > the crime of betraying one’s country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government._ > > Now, using that definition, apply it to the facts and your claim. Pay particular attention to the “kill” or “overthrow” part. > > Now, simply show where anyone is trying to “kill” or “overthrow” with respect to leaving the union. I suspect I’ll be waiting quite a while here. > > Your treason comment sounds like something Sarah Palin would mutter. Using a vague dictionary definition of treason has little to do with what it means in the USA. Here is an article that goes over what it really means in the context of rebellion against the united states. [cite](http://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/25/news/treason-against-the-united-states.html) ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/142 "2016-11-15T06:28:49Z")
I’ll say the same thing to the Californians that I say to the Texans that float this bullshit: unless you can negotiate your secession to the point where both sides are amicable to the situation, I’ll join up on the side of union over this idea. I’ve said it to the face of Texans I respect when I saw the placard displayed in their truck, and I see no reason to hold back here. It’s a stupid idea for a variety of reasons, and you’re unlikely to agree to the terms that result, so it’ll most likely to result in shooting. It’s better to bide your time, and live to see another day politically. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/143 "2016-11-15T06:48:25Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > far as I can tell, post secession born children in the People’s Democratic Republic of California would NOT automatically be US citizens by virtue of parental dual citizenship. > It’s not in the 14th Amendment, so please tell me where to find it? [Here you go.](https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/144 "2016-11-15T08:35:15Z")
I wonder what shot the democrats have of the house of representatives or the presidency without California. I’m going to say somewhere between “diddly” and “squat”. That’s just one reason this is a terribly stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/145 "2016-11-15T11:03:26Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I’ll say the same thing to the Californians that I say to the Texans that float this bullshit: unless you can negotiate your secession to the point where both sides are amicable to the situation, I’ll join up on the side of union over this idea. > > I’ve said it to the face of Texans I respect when I saw the placard displayed in their truck, and I see no reason to hold back here. It’s a stupid idea for a variety of reasons, and you’re unlikely to agree to the terms that result, so it’ll most likely to result in shooting. It’s better to bide your time, and live to see another day politically. The latest Texas “secession” kerfluffle happened when Kay Bailey Hutchison wanted to leave the Senate & considered running for Governor. (I do miss her–she was the last sane Republican. I never voted for her but she never embarrassed us.) Governor Goodhair floated secession to win over the wingnuts. Later, he decided he’d rather be President of the USA & dropped the matter. Now he’s hoping for a role in the Trump Regime. But most Texans know that secession is bullshit. I’m wondering about the California Secesh. I can understand their contempt for the flyover states–as they ignore the Blue spots in all of them. Texas has those Blue cities–not just Groovy Austin. But California doesn’t care. But–how about Yankeeland? And Illinois–mostly rural but Blue because of Chicago. Those Blue states–including The Greatest City In The World–will hardly appreciate losing California’s Electoral votes. It will make regaining the Presidency much harder. So why should _they_ let California leave? ---
**Author:** ![emcee2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emcee2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emcee2k)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/146 "2016-11-15T11:18:30Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Secession is impractical for myriad reasons, lack of military being one of them. But I’d love to see this come to a vote as a Brexit-esque non-binding referendum, just to make a statement to the rest of the backwards, racist, sexist, red-state run USA. Well you’ll definitely be following the Brexit model, right down to the demonization of outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/147 "2016-11-15T13:25:38Z")
Not to mention that “making a statement” is basically the lowest, least effort form of action. It’s the bare minimum one can do and try to claim they “did something.” Plus, those “statements” are rarely perceived the way you wish them to be. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/148 "2016-11-15T16:02:24Z")
I dug up what I said [when Texas was talking secession about five years back](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=620865): > [@](#): > > If states wanted to secede now, I’d say let 'em go. > > Numero uno, there’s no moral issue such as slavery to justify keeping them; a war to prevent secession would simply be a war to reaffirm the absence of a state’s right to leave the Union. > > Numero two-o, we seem to be splitting up into two parts of the country that have fundamentally contradictory approaches to the challenges we face, and for that matter fundamentally divergent views of reality. To the extent that these differences of opinion are geographically concentrated, I really do think the best answer is to let those states go that want to go, let conservatives go whole-hog in trying it their way, and let the rest of us make some progress without being blocked at every turn by a radical minority. It would give us a real test of whose ideas were actually best. And in response to a comment that not many people would actually want to leave the Union: > [@](#): > > Probably not, if push came to shove. But it would be fun to call their bluff. They might have to acknowledge that living in the U.S. under a Clinton or Obama presidency is really not all that terrible. One difference now is that it’s liberals rather than conservatives discussing secession. But my attitude doesn’t change just because the shoe’s on the other foot. But the other thing is that while the tyranny of Obama was largely something in wingnuts’ heads (if he’s gonna get around to grabbing all their guns, he’d better hurry!), liberals’ fears of what life will be like under what will effectively be Trump/Ryan joint rule are based on what their own words and actions. While the chances of its actually happening are somewhere between zero and, well, zero, the logic of a compact of states (perhaps including the three West Coast states and most of the Northeast) seceding to preserve and improve on the Union as it is, while restricting the Trump/Ryan damage to the states that stay, seems kinda sensible, actually. For instance, if DC and Maryland were part of the compact, we could copy the Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare records on the way out, and keep those programs intact in the states in the compact. Then we could make a new Constitution by altering the old one somewhat, e.g. adding an ERA that gave equal rights not just to women, but LGBT persons as well, and dispensing with the Second Amendment. Once we were up and running, other states would be welcome to jump off the sinking ship of Trumpland and join us. Sure, the U.S. military could do…what, exactly? The main effect of secession on the existing U.S. government would be the lack of tax payments from the Compact states to the Federal government. I suppose the Army could send jackbooted thugs to every door in the Compact states to collect taxes. Oh, the irony! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/149 "2016-11-15T16:53:49Z")
Seceding because one lost an _election_ is anathema to everything American Democracy is supposed to stand for. Seceding for other reasons may not be morally wrong (depends on grievance and lack of other recourse to solve it), but because one lost the election? I call BS. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/150 "2016-11-15T17:35:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sure, the U.S. military could do…what, exactly? Waterboard the leaders of #CalExit and drone strike their families? Isn’t that pretty much what Trump said he’d do to terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/151 "2016-11-15T18:06:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sure, the U.S. military could do…what, exactly? See 1861-1865 And as for the nonsensical claim that California provides $16B more in taxes than it receives, do you think that money just grows up from the dirt? That money is paid by many companies and individuals that will happily vacate to other non-insane states in the US. And the ones that stay? Well how much tax revenue will they be providing when they can no longer sell to the rest of the country? Or they lose their jobs because their company headquartered in another state closes up its offices? Furthermore, the whole argument about the UN not allowing the US to invade? Please grow up. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/152 "2016-11-15T18:59:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I dug up what I said [when Texas was talking secession about five years back](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=620865): > And in response to a comment that not many people would actually want to leave the Union: > One difference now is that it’s liberals rather than conservatives discussing secession. But my attitude doesn’t change just because the shoe’s on the other foot. > > But the other thing is that while the tyranny of Obama was largely something in wingnuts’ heads (if he’s gonna get around to grabbing all their guns, he’d better hurry!), liberals’ fears of what life will be like under what will effectively be Trump/Ryan joint rule are based on what their own words and actions. > > While the chances of its actually happening are somewhere between zero and, well, zero, the logic of a compact of states (perhaps including the three West Coast states and most of the Northeast) seceding to preserve and improve on the Union as it is, while restricting the Trump/Ryan damage to the states that stay, seems kinda sensible, actually. > > For instance, if DC and Maryland were part of the compact, we could copy the Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare records on the way out, and keep those programs intact in the states in the compact. Then we could make a new Constitution by altering the old one somewhat, e.g. adding an ERA that gave equal rights not just to women, but LGBT persons as well, and dispensing with the Second Amendment. Once we were up and running, other states would be welcome to jump off the sinking ship of Trumpland and join us. > > Sure, the U.S. military could do…what, exactly? The main effect of secession on the existing U.S. government would be the lack of tax payments from the Compact states to the Federal government. I suppose the Army could send jackbooted thugs to every door in the Compact states to collect taxes. Oh, the irony! That’s ridiculous. You are talking about less than 0.01% of loons in any given state that support secession. Wouldn’t even need the Army. But yes, if needed to eliminate the loonery, the Army would make it a bit more quick. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/153 "2016-11-15T19:00:15Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The latest Texas “secession” kerfluffle happened when Kay Bailey Hutchison wanted to leave the Senate & considered running for Governor. (I do miss her–she was the last sane Republican. I never voted for her but she never embarrassed us.) Governor Goodhair floated secession to win over the wingnuts. Later, he decided he’d rather be President of the USA & dropped the matter. Now he’s hoping for a role in the Trump Regime. Yeah, I didn’t appreciate Hutchison when she was active. Sadly, Abbott has made me appreciate Perry a little more. Either way, I hope his inability to remember more than two items on a list prevents him from having further influence. He isn’t the only reason I’ve seen idiots get on the “secede!” wagon, but he’s the highest official to band about such irresponsible talk. He should run a QT, and nothing bigger. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But most Texans know that secession is bullshit. I’m wondering about the California Secesh. I can understand their contempt for the flyover states–as they ignore the Blue spots in all of them. Texas has those Blue cities–not just Groovy Austin. But California doesn’t care. _Most_ Texans do know it is bullshit. Sadly, there’s a non-zero number that don’t seem to understand how complex of a problem it is. However, even those seem to have a moment of clarity when it’s made clear that the person standing in front of them really will shoot them over this fantasy if they try to make it reality without negotiating away these difficult problems. I agree that I don’t know Californians well enough to know what percentage of them know that talk of secession is bullshit. I honestly was surprised by the number of otherwise intelligent\* folks in Texas that bandied about this idea until I explained that unless they could work out the details of their shared debt/military/infrastructure\*\*/etc., it’s going to become a shooting war, and most of the folks at Fort Hood probably weren’t born in Texas. Other than NASA properties, it seems that California is more interlocked with the U.S. than Texas is. Not to mention, you’re adding negotiating an international trade agreement while a noodlehead is in office to the mix of problems the idea presents. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But–how about Yankeeland? And Illinois–mostly rural but Blue because of Chicago. Those Blue states–including The Greatest City In The World–will hardly appreciate losing California’s Electoral votes. It will make regaining the Presidency much harder. So why should _they_ let California leave? Indeed, I hadn’t even considered the pure political problems that their departure would represent. \*These people could troubleshoot complex problems with computers that I sometimes couldn’t track down myself. They at least understood cause and effect on some level. \*\*Hey Cali, Texas has it’s own independent electrical grid, and it’s still an idea that’s on the stupid level of practicality. Enron? Heck, look at Ukraine/Russia and their access to gas. I’m not saying it’s right at all, but it could end up that way. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/154 "2016-11-15T23:19:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If NM swaps with AZ, can we come too? We’ll just swap the people, not the land, then we get the Grand Canyon. (Don’t let on about the leaky flat roofs on all the adobe houses.) > > Even better, if CO also swaps with UT, the blue states in the West can just secede as a block, leaving a contiguous Trumpdom of Deploria in the center. Deploria gets the Rockies, but we get all the canyon country and the Sierra Nevada. Oh, **please** don’t fall into the trap of believing that those of us in the center of the country are all part of the Trumpdom of Deploria. I’ve been having fantasies lately of the metro Chicago area seceding from Illinois. (Illinois would, I’m sorry to say, likely be a red state if not for the Chicago urban area.) Then the new state of Chicagoland would be in position to secede, too – or perhaps become part of California? Illinois, I’ll point out, is also a donor state. And most of the reddest states are welfare states (I think that’s the term used for states that collect more federal money than they pay in). I’d like to see some of those states pay their fair share for a change. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/155 "2016-11-15T23:22:23Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > [Here you go.](https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents) thank you **ruadh** so basically what I’m seeing is that the citizenship for children born after is a principle inshrined in policy but not in the constitution. Funny thing about principles and policies when the future of your country is being threatened, they become quite malleable. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/156 "2016-11-15T23:26:47Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Oh, **please** don’t fall into the trap of believing that those of us in the center of the country are all part of the Trumpdom of Deploria. > > I’ve been having fantasies lately of the metro Chicago area seceding from Illinois. (Illinois would, I’m sorry to say, likely be a red state if not for the Chicago urban area.) Then the new state of Chicagoland would be in position to secede, too – or perhaps become part of California? > > Illinois, I’ll point out, is also a donor state. And most of the reddest states are welfare states (I think that’s the term used for states that collect more federal money than they pay in). I’d like to see some of those states pay their fair share for a change. slight hijack yanno, thinking about that, IF Chicago were to some how actually successfully secede from the Union, depending on the amount of the surrounding area they could take with them for agricultural purposes, I think the Chicago Emperium would stand a better chance than the PRoC to be totally honest. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/157 "2016-11-16T00:25:14Z")
Need to have a Democratic Diaspora, away from the cities, and take over cities such as St. Cloud MN, Franklin PA, Springfield OH, Metropolis IL, and Minocqua WI. That would serve the country far better than silly secession ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/158 "2016-11-16T00:45:54Z")
You think I’m going to let the republicans win the presidency permanently after a CalExit? After all the grief they put me through ??? I WANT TO STAY !!! ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/159 "2016-11-16T07:02:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I wonder what shot the democrats have of the house of representatives or the presidency without California. > > I’m going to say somewhere between “diddly” and “squat”. > > That’s just one reason this is a terribly stupid idea. That’s just like the UK Labour argument that Scotland shouldn’t become independent because Labour would never win Westminster without it. Not Scotland’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467/160 "2016-11-16T07:06:29Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > so basically what I’m seeing is that the citizenship for children born after is a principle inshrined in policy but not in the constitution. Funny thing about principles and policies when the future of your country is being threatened, they become quite malleable. It’s enshrined in legislation, and I rather doubt Californian secession would be enough to convince Congress to repeal that legislation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-joined-and-pledged-support-to-yes-california-today/771467.md?page=9)