# I Just Fired Someone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801 "2005-10-25T12:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/121 "2005-10-27T13:49:16Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > If someone is “downsized,” I will give them all the sympathy I can. But in the case of incompetence? No way. I got enough to do keeping my own socks pulled up without trying to make sure everyone has pulled-up socks too. If you honestly feel that you are so overwhelmed by the difficulties of your job that you can’t help out your fellow employees that’s understandable. > [@](#): > > If Touchy Feely Company puts up with Joe Slacker at the expense of Billy Wonderboy, Billy Wonderboy is eventually going to say, “The hell with this,” and go work for Appreciative Company. Eventually, the only employees Touchy Feely Company will have are Joe Slackers, while Billy Wonderboys are making good money and getting corner offices at employers who don’t put up with crap from incompetent employees. This argument fails because Joe Slacker may become Billy Wonderboy under different circumstances. Circumstances tend to vary from job to job and person to person, it’s extremely limiting to assume that people are completely defined by how they work out in one particular instance. Einstein, for example, was a slacker post office employee, but a GREAT physicist. > [@](#): > > It’s a morale issue. Good employees are hard to find, and you don’t want to lose them to the competition because you’re too busy trying to find out why the slackers are calling in sick every Friday, taking three hour lunches, and doing half-assed work that everyone else fixes. I would suggest that employers who don’t pay attention to their employees except to fire them when their work becomes substandard are the ones who are most likely to lose to the competition. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/122 "2005-10-27T13:52:23Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > You know, **EC** , I live in a country that has those kind of safety nets you seem to describe. It still doesn’t work and people losing their jobs, for whatever reason, is still brutal. The laws regulating how you can fire an employee make it quite expensive, meaning that firing someone over incompetence might cost a severene package of up to twelve months’ pay. If you want to get rid of someone, due to cutbacks, the principle is “last in, first out” meaning that cutbacks lead to younger and better educated workers get laid off, while those nearing retirement gets to stay on. Breaking the “last in, first out” rule can cost up to 24 months’ pay, if a person has been employed for more than five years. > > The end result? > More and more people are working temp jobs, or there are time limited contracts, renewed every six months. This means it’s a lot harder for people to get mortgages, buy a car or whatever. Companies are wary about employing people, since it might cost them a fortune to get rid of them later. I hate to burst your bubble, but here in the US we have a lot of employers turning to contract workers and temps as well. In fact, some Microsoft workers sued about a decade ago because they’d been kept on as temps for YEARS. Except we don’t have the social safety net you do. We get all the risk and none of the benefits. So, maybe the problem isnt’ so much the benefits as the employers, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/123 "2005-10-27T13:55:41Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > So far, nobody who’s posted here has come close to what you are complaining about. Give your complaints a rest. Thanks for the advice, it’s been properly filed. > [@](#): > > I’ve been laid off before at the ripe old age of 19. It sucks, but I got back up and found another job instead of going to the self-pity card. Self-pity doesn’t pay well. Show me where I advocated self-pity and I might admit you have a point. > [@](#): > > Those are the kind of people who are inheirantly assholes, no matter where they work, where they play and where they roost. The only persons that need to make changes are the assholes themselves, not everyone else. That’s great that you feel for them and all, but don’t expect society to bow to them. I know from previous posts that you are intolerant of asshole employers…which is fine by me, but asshole employees should be viewed no differently, IMHO. I’m sure it’s conveninet for the sake of your argument to characterize everyone who’s ever had problems on the job as an asshole, but that doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/124 "2005-10-27T14:07:23Z")
Evil Captor: Advising someone to fib on the resume is certainly unethical, IMHO. And, if your job is to provide _good_ advice to a client seeking employment somewhere, you’re certainly no different, again IMHO, than the employee Bricker fired. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/125 "2005-10-27T14:09:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > IShe would likely be back hard at work, One cannot go back to where one has never been. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/126 "2005-10-27T14:18:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Evil Captor: Advising someone to fib on the resume is certainly unethical, IMHO. And, if your job is to provide _good_ advice to a client seeking employment somewhere, you’re certainly no different, again IMHO, than the employee Bricker fired. Here’s my take on the ethics of the situation. A person looking for work is in a desperate situation. They may likely go on welfare if they can’t find work, and we all hate that becuase it raises our taxes by a billionth of a penny every time it happens. Saying you have had experience programming in ASP or whatever when you CAN program in ASP becomes a white lie under such circumstances. If it gets someone a job they succeed in, everybody wins. (This is EXACTLY how the founder of Sierra Online Software became wealthy enough to start his own company). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/127 "2005-10-27T14:26:24Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Here’s my take on the ethics of the situation. A person looking for work is in a desperate situation. They may likely go on welfare if they can’t find work, and we all hate that becuase it raises our taxes by a billionth of a penny every time it happens. Saying you have had experience programming in ASP or whatever when you CAN program in ASP becomes a white lie under such circumstances. If it gets someone a job they succeed in, everybody wins. Except the employee. If the employer ever discovers the lie, the employee can be fired, with cause. The employee will not receive any unemployment benefits. Some employers would fire over this no matter how much time has elapsed. You were making up “rules” that can destroy people’s lives. There’s nothing ethical about that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/128 "2005-10-27T14:27:13Z")
Here’s my take on it: Advising someone to actually lie on the resume is unethical. Advising someone to state the fact that they have studied a particular thing when they, in fact, have studied that particular thing, is peachy keen. Advising someone to simply state that they can do a particular thing when, in fact, they can do that particular thing is also peachy keen. BTW, isn’t the resume considered part of the employment application? Can’t the individual be fired if it’s discovered the person lied on the employment application (to include the resume)? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/129 "2005-10-27T14:33:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except the employee. If the employer ever discovers the lie, the employee can be fired, with cause. The employee will not receive any unemployment benefits. Some employers would fire over this no matter how much time has elapsed. I forgot another point. If an employee is fired for cause (which lying about qualifications is), in some circumstances that employee will be ineligible for food stamps and some other government programs. Doubly screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/130 "2005-10-27T14:34:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except the employee. If the employer ever discovers the lie, the employee can be fired, with cause. The employee will not receive any unemployment benefits. Some employers would fire over this no matter how much time has elapsed. > > You were making up “rules” that can destroy people’s lives. There’s nothing ethical about that. Well, if the person knows ASP, and the job involves doing ASP, I doubt the employer would give a shit. You’re summoning up a very remote possibility as a stumbling block to someone getting a desperately needed job. Bzzzt, no soup for you! But there IS soup for my gainfully employed clients, because they can afford soup now! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/131 "2005-10-27T14:36:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Here’s my take on it: Advising someone to actually lie on the resume is unethical. Advising someone to state the fact that they have studied a particular thing when they, in fact, have studied that particular thing, is peachy keen. Advising someone to simply state that they can do a particular thing when, in fact, they can do that particular thing is also peachy keen. Well, I told people that if they can do a thing, it’s all right to claim they can do it. We are in agreement. If they CAN’T do it, I would advise not to make such claims. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/132 "2005-10-27T14:37:44Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I forgot another point. If an employee is fired for cause (which lying about qualifications is), in some circumstances that employee will be ineligible for food stamps and some other government programs. Doubly screwed. Yes, and if they get hit by a meteor during that process, things are even worse! (I don’t think your concerns are grounded in any sort of reality). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/133 "2005-10-27T14:40:10Z")
Any concern for the guy that actually had previous ASP job experience, but was passed over because your protegé had “better,” albeit faux, job experience? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/134 "2005-10-27T14:41:33Z")
You said upthread that you advised them to claim experience in the thing, even if they really didn’t have experience. That’s advising them to lie. That’s unethical. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/135 "2005-10-27T14:48:05Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > If you honestly feel that you are so overwhelmed by the difficulties of your job that you can’t help out your fellow employees that’s understandable. Nice try to twist my words. I was speaking of incompetence, and that it’s not my job to make sure that other people’s incompetence is covered. > [@](#): > > This argument fails because Joe Slacker may become Billy Wonderboy under different circumstances. Circumstances tend to vary from job to job and person to person, it’s extremely limiting to assume that people are completely defined by how they work out in one particular instance. Einstein, for example, was a slacker post office employee, but a GREAT physicist. So, you’re saying the USPS should have gone out of their way to fit Einstein into the postal service, and figured out how to make him better at his job? The fact that Einstein was fired for being an incompetent postal employee was a good thing, since the world got a great scientist out of it. Some people don’t fit, and they need be moved on if they can’t figure that out on their own. > [@](#): > > I would suggest that employers who don’t pay attention to their employees except to fire them when their work becomes substandard are the ones who are most likely to lose to the competition. At what point does an employer give up? After a six months? After a year? It becomes a matter of throwing good money after bad, and good employees will get tired of seeing the slackers get away with bad work and move on themselves. Note, I am NOT talking about good workers who suddenly turn bad. I am talking about stupidity. I can deal with ignorance. But when I’ve explained something 14 times and the employee STILL doesn’t get it, then I get very impatient and will look to get someone who will understand more quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/136 "2005-10-27T14:48:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Any concern for the guy that actually had previous ASP job experience, but was passed over because your protegé had “better,” albeit faux, job experience? I’m looking at an actual unemployed person looking for work, Bricker. It’s not fair to favor a hypothetical unemployed person over a real unemployed person, is it? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/137 "2005-10-27T14:49:45Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Well, if the person knows ASP, and the job involves doing ASP, I doubt the employer would give a shit. You’re the fucking moron who has been screaming in this entire thread about how cruel and heartless employers are. Now you want people to trust them? You are stupid. There’s no other explanation than that you are willfully stupid. Employers don’t like to be lied to. Many employers do and will fire over a lie on a job application. If the lie involved either qualifications for the job (the lie you are recommending) or criminal history, the termination will be upheld by the unemployment bureau. The terminated employee is then _fucked_, you moron. You want a safety net, but you are deliberately trying to yank what net there is out from under these applicants. Such callous disregard for their lives after all the whining you’ve done about employers is so far beyond stupidity that I would like to think you’re just making shit up in order to piss people off. It worked! I’m pissed! Congrats. Fucker. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/138 "2005-10-27T14:50:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You said upthread that you advised them to claim experience in the thing, even if they really didn’t have experience. That’s advising them to lie. That’s unethical. Your cheap moral superiority is duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/139 "2005-10-27T14:56:15Z")
Cheap moral superiority? That’s quite a laugh. Yet another btw for you: When you had the job of advising job seekers, had your boss discovered you advising them to falsify their resumes/job applications, would you have been subject to dismissal? In other words, by advising the client to lie, were you then actually not performing the job for which you were hired? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801/140 "2005-10-27T14:56:16Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’m looking at an actual unemployed person looking for work, Bricker. It’s not fair to favor a hypothetical unemployed person over a real unemployed person, is it? What if the hypothetical unemployed person is also disabled? And has two minor children? Shouldn’t you then favor the hypothetical unemployed disabled mother? At what point do you care about the hypotheticals of the world? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-fired-someone/327801.md?page=8)