Oh, shove it up your bunghole. You’re completely wrong on this issue. I’ve worked in a lot of jobs, I’ve known a lot of people who’ve worked in a lot of jobs, and the key point in all cases was, can you do the job? I don’t know of ANYBODY whose resume has ever come under scrutiny after they’ve proved themselves on the job. You’re completely full of shit.
When you have real people to help, you help them. YOu don’t worry about hypotheticals, no matter how hypthetically distressed.
All my boss cared about was how many clients I had and how much they paid. I never heard any inquiries on any other topics. Fortunately, I was good at my job and got a lot of clients.
I’ll grant that you got a lot of clients. However, by your own admission, you were not good at that job.
Here’s something for you to consider, Evil Captor. Perhaps your ridiculous defense of the person Bricker fired is based on your “work ethic” being no different than hers?
Lovely ad hominem. I’ll give it all the consideration it is worthy of.
It’s very lovely since, concerning this issue, it’s both factual and of import.
And what about your self-taught ASP programmer who has no actual experience who shows up to an interview and gets asked “Tell me about your previous ASP programming experience”? Do they lie to the interviewer?
If not, how do you recommend they respond to the interviewer asking why they’re claiming to have experience they actually lack?
Or, in three years, when the boss of your faux-ASP programmer is raving to the putative source of the programmer’s experience and gets informed that Joe wasn’t a programmer, he was a janitor. I can assure you, Joe will be in the boss’ office first thing the next morning with some difficult questions to answer.
Or Joe authors a paper or article or trade publication submission and has to provide a background that some conscientious fact-checker realizes is phony-baloney and subsequently reports about it?
And since one of your primary arguments is that it’s brutal out there for the unemployed, where’s your compassion for the equally-unemployed applicant who does have the requisite experience and is snaked out of the job by Mr. Lying McCheatyPants?
If you really think that employers can’t tell the difference between a good, responsible employee with life circumstances that might merit some flexibility and a worthless slacker, you’ve been into the high-grade pharmaceuticals. Companies frequently go out of their way to accomodate a good worker if it’s possible. Good workers are thin on the ground out there. In the purest, most capitalistic analysis, even letting aside issues of human compassion, it’s more economically sensible to make minor accomodations for an employee who’s proven themself to be reliable and efficient and just flat good.
I have no compassion for bad workers. If someone is simply unsuited for their current employment, then they should seek alternate employment for which they are suited. That’s no reason, however, to fail to perform at your current job. When you take a job, you agree to perform in a certain fashion. If you fail to do so, then you’ve broken your promise. If your situation changes such that you’re having trouble with your original agreement, then the thing to do is go to your supervisor, explain, and figure out if an accomodation is possible, not just fail to perform and then whine about your problems when called on it.
People who don’t do their jobs deserve to be fired. I’ll feel compassion for any hardship this might cause them, but not doing your job means that you brought it on yourself.
and of course your personal set of data is sufficient proof of the point?
I’ve known of many folks who falsified their apps or resumes, worked for various periods of time, the lie came out and they were fired. Their work history was immaterial. In fact, they also were denied Unemployment benefits in many cases, since it was considered a justifiable fire. (that info I got from an Unemployment claims worker).
My work history = 28 years working w/offenders, last 14 years specifically employment related, last 4 years working within a large multi-organizational “One Stop” offering employment services to the masses. (IOW, working alongside another 60 -70 people whose job it is to help folks find work).
they also agree that lies on resumes and apps often lead to firing.
Evil Captor, a few years ago, I was a laid-off computer tech looking for a job. I actually have some experience with ASP and it’s listed on my resume along with my other credentials. I was also aware, while I was job hunting that I was likely to be one of a hundred or more applicants for any given job. If I’d found out that a company had interviewed some guy who lied about having ASP experience while passing me over when I actually had it, I’d be dead angry at the person who lied about his experience and the person who advised him to do it. I apply for jobs on my real experience and skills, not falsehoods made up out of desperation. I understand desperation. After 7 months of trying to find computer work, I took work as an administrative assistant to keep a roof over my head and food on my table.
I know about learning on the job – when I first moved back to my city, I took a job which took me from temporary data entry to full-time programmer. I didn’t need to lie about my credentials or my skills to do so. I simply sat down, did the job, and took every chance I had to increase my skills. You talked about despair. Believe me, pal, it’s not exactly hope-inspiring to learn that someone might get a job I want and/or need because of his lack of ethics.
As I’ve said, I’ve been responsible for a few people getting fired. The two I remember are a guy who consistently came in late, left early, and lied about his hours, leaving me and other coworkers to pick up the slack. This was back while I was working in Japanese tourism in Waikiki. The day he quit moments before he was fired, I had the job of relaying to him that he could do one of two things: he could either meet people whose flight landed around 10:00 pm when they got to their hotel in Waikiki around midnight, or he could meet some people at their hotel at 6:00 am the following morning to assist with their departure. It was his turn on the rotation to handle the midnight arrival. He refused to do either and quit. As a result, I wound up handling both and then working a full day on far too little sleep.
The other case was sadder. When I was with a different company, we hired guys to hand out fliers on the street. My boss and I tried to hire guys who were down on their luck and who needed the job. The guy who managed our flyer guys was homeless, himself, and slept in our office until he ran up over $100 in calls to 900 numbers. (We also had them blocked after that.) We had one guy who we knew was using drugs. We told him that, unless he could stay clean for one week, we’d fire him. My employer wasn’t a large, rich, company; in fact, we were downright tiny. We could barely afford office supplies, let alone drug rehab programs for employees. This guy couldn’t or wouldn’t stay clean for a week, so my boss gave me the job of telling him not to come back.
I’ve battled severe clinical depression and been screwed over by my share of employers. I’m certain I’ve even lost a job for being the wrong race, although that was nearly 20 years ago and trying to prove it would have pretty much killed my fledgling career. I’ve also worked with and for incompetents, taking up the slack they generate and trying to keep my job and/or my part of the company running smoothly. I’ve covered a reception desk when I’ve been supposed to be writing code because the young woman who was supposed to be covering it couldn’t be bothered to turn up on time or call to say she was running late and someone was coming in for an 8:30 am job interview. Doing so was a waste of my time and my employer’s money, but someone had to meet the person coming in for the interview, and the desk I was at was closest to the reception desk.
By the way, vetbridge, since you and I are in the same city, would you mind e-mailing me your company name? You see, I’ve been fired and I’ve worked for an obnoxious boss, although the latter wasn’t intentionally trying to harrass me into leaving. There’s no doubt in my mind that a straight firing is far preferable. There are some combinations of job and person which are a poor fit, and I’d much rather walk away from one than have my opinion of the job and the employer reduced to so low a level I wonder why anyone in her right mind would consider working for the company. As for unemployment, I had an employer try to dispute my right to it exactly once. They said I was fired for cause when, as it happened, I’d talked to my supervisor the very morning I was laid off and she was happy with my work. We’d also been bought out by a larger company, jobs were being cut, and I was the newest hire. When I told unemployment that, there was no problem with my receiving unemployment, and that was in Hawaii, where unemployment was a lot tougher to deal with than here.
CJ
Since I have no personal ASP experience, I’m going to switch over to Web stuff I know better. They should say somethbing like this: “At Microjammital, I was responsible for creating HTML tables from software manuals in PDF format using Microsoft FrontPage, which were used to train employees in applications of various types of hardware we used. I used CSS functions to vary the colors of the tables and the layout to fit the templates I had to match. It was basically a matter of reformatting the existing data. I also used HTML at times because sometimes it was simpler to work with the source code.”
How did you go about builiding the tables in FrontPage?
Well, first I built a table that matched the template in terms of rows and cells, then I set up a CSS tag for the colors of the first row and subsequent rows, etc. etc. etcf.
It’s easy to do, if yuo’ve actually built tables in FrontPage using CSS. Which is the germane issue, is it not?
Moot point.
Sure, but if in the meantime he has built some excellent ASP code for the boss, I bet the boss will be accommodating.
At that point, it might behoove Joe to alter his resume a bit. Once again, you’re getting into farfetched terriotory … very hypothetical.
Once again, it’s false morality to not help a real person on behalf of a hypothetical person.
Please do me the courtesy of responding to points I have actually made.
Yes, indeed. That’s good.
Sorry to hear that. Is your lack of compassion just a matter of not being interested in helping them, or do you wanna go steal food from their kids’ plates, too?
Maybe someday you’ll learn. Hint: it’s rarely the good workers who need compassion. They tend to stay employed. (Though with some employers, that’s a mixed blessing.)
I agree. Stay with the job and get those resumes out there!
There are all sorts of reasons why people fail at jobs, some good, some bad. Characterizing them all as deliberate choices is silly.
Sure, and if you find someplace where I’ve advocated keeping people on who don’t do their jobs, you will have a point.
fake a degree qualification and run a large hospital
If you do a truly excellent job and enough people testify at your trial what a splendid administrator you were, you might be lucky enough to escape with a one-year suspended prison sentence and a bill for £7,000.
I haven’t had a lot of jobs, but I have absolutely no difficulty believing that an employer would take any dishonesty very seriously indeed, irrespective of how good you are. Financial companies, for instance, tend to take that kind of thing badly, as do any type of professional organisations.
I’m kind of curious as to why Evil Captor seems to have so much emotional baggage invested in this topic. My only response to the OP was along the lines of ‘Meh’. I’ve seen people shitcanned for a lot less, and I’ve seen people get away with worse. By the sounds of it the Firee shouldn’t have been surprised at getting the bullet, and her colleagues would probably have been plenty miffed if she hadn’t been.
All this wailing and gnashing of teeth about how terrible it is for her seem to have missed out the tiny point that at no point did she ever go to her colleagues, her boss, her bosses boss, the company ombudsperson, janitor or whatever and say ‘I think I’ve got myself into a pickle and I’m not sure what to do - help’. If someone has problems and wants help, fair enough. Ripping off your customers, colleagues and employer and then going ‘waaaaaaaaaaaaaah’ is just being shitty and gets you a one-way trip out the front door.
As has been pointed out and nauseam, it’s a tough job market and unemployment sucks. There are plenty of hard-working honest people who would be delighted to have a job - why reserve this job for someone who has been given a good chance and proven themselves to be a liability?
So - ding dong the witch is dead. Welcome to the real world.
Need more information here. What exactly is on the kids’ plates? Home cooking or fast food? Fresh out of the oven or leftovers? Are the mashed potatoes the boxed kind(blech)? Has the food been touched by the wee ones or is the food pristine? Are the vegetables (if present) over cooked?
I just don’t see how it’s all that unethical to claim to be able to do something which you can in fact do. And getting worked up over that, as opposed to all the myriad reasons why one might get passed over for a job that have little or nothing to do with merit seems pointless.
None of this seems all that germane to the argument at hand.
I think we may have a case of apples and oranges here. Offenders versus a cross section of people looking for work are probably very different populations, eh? I imagine they have significant problems that need addressing. What sort of lies we talking 'bout here?
Hey, knucklehead…WHERE did I say that any employee whose had problems are assholes? I’ve worked with many employees who have had problems that are legitimate and/or beyond their control. None of them were assholes, you asshole. The ones who create their own problems and expect the employer to fix or cater to them on their terms are the ones I’m talking about.
I think you actually have problems with employers who actually do the right thing because that goes against your philosophy that every employer is evil, greedy and uncaring. That would explain your false accusation that you made. You are so far from the truth of what I’ve done over the last 13 years. :wally
Evidently you can’t tell the difference between (1) claiming the ability to do something one has, in fact, the ability to do and (2) claiming experience one does not, in fact, have. They are not the same thing.
So, if you’re working in a food processing plant and discover that one of your coworkers forgot to put an allergy warning label on a product containing peanut oil.
Do you:
1)Bring this to the attention of management so they can issue a public notification or recall, knowing that one side effect will be to get your coworker fired for negligence, or
2)Help your coworker cover up the mistake, on the grounds that helping the real live person in front of you is more important than protecting the hypothetical peanut-allergic person who might come upon the product unawares?
Does the employee bear ANY responsiblity to do a good job, show up on time, and be competent? If someone is not able not able to do the job, how is it the employer’s fault? People can give good interviews and then be competely worthless.
A, the claim that “no one cares about the resume after you’ve proved you do the job well” was, IME, patently false.
B. Did you notice that although I work w/offenders, the other folks work w/general public and see the same thing I have?
So, no, not apples and oranges. Roma apples, red delicious apples, jonathans, etc.