### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/147 "2011-08-23T19:44:48Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> You again. Sigh.
>
> It should not overexercise anyone’s critical facilities to see that definitions
> 2b and 3 accord with what I intended to convey.
Nope.
> [@Merriam Webster](#):
>
> b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
> 3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs \
**MrDibble** ’s point was that he _doesn’t_ believe the biblical account. Quite the opposite of definitions 2b and 3.
> [@colonial](#):
>
> I do not believe in any supernatural claims from any source, and have
> not expressed any such belief.
Then one must wonder - why disagree with someone who says there may have been some carpenter in Palestine 2000 years ago named Joshua, but that he doesn’t believe there was anything supernatural about that person?
---
### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/148 "2011-08-23T21:47:15Z")
> [@wevets](#):
>
> Nope.
>
> **MrDibble** ’s point was that he _doesn’t_ believe the biblical account. Quite the opposite of definitions 2b and 3.
>
> Then one must wonder - why disagree with someone who says there may have been some carpenter in Palestine 2000 years ago named Joshua, but that he doesn’t believe there was anything supernatural about that person?
You really are not getting it at all.
I thought I would check your profile to see if there might be something there to explain
your complete inability to comprehend stuff.
Do you think you might need to spend more time in the decompression chamber?
---
### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/149 "2011-08-23T21:57:03Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> I format my posts to suit myself, and I operate on the assumption
> that anyone who is distracted is probably not interested in giving
> much serious thought to the discussion anyway.
The purpose of conventions in communication, **colonial** , is to make the reader’s task easier. The way you format your posts draws attention to itself and away from your message. It is the very opposite of clarity.
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [August 23, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/150 "2011-08-23T22:17:37Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> You really are not getting it at all.
>
> I thought I would check your profile to see if there might be something there to explain
> your complete inability to comprehend stuff.
>
> Do you think you might need to spend more time in the decompression chamber?
Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum, so you need to adopt a more civil tone immediately. Don’t do this again.
---
### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/151 "2011-08-26T15:34:05Z")
This isn’t intended to be personal, **colonial** , I’m just not clear on why someone would reject supernaturalism yet argue that supernatural events or entities in the bible should be accorded belief.
Perhaps I’ve summarized your views incorrectly - could you lay them out more explicitly?
---
### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/152 "2011-08-26T21:23:09Z")
> [@wevets](#):
>
> This isn’t intended to be personal, **colonial** , I’m just not clear on why someone would reject supernaturalism yet argue that supernatural events or entities in the bible should be accorded belief.
>
> Perhaps I’ve summarized your views incorrectly - could you lay them out more explicitly?
For the last time, I have not said that any supernatural event should be
accorded belief. Accepting the historical existence of people as Moses
and events such as the Jews’ escape from Egypt does not create obligation
to accept supernatural attachments concocted by those of supernaturalist
persuasion.
Our disagreement began when I felt obliged to point out that supernaturalist
belief is a brute fact of utmost significance in the life of the human race,
like it or not. You wish it would go away? Me too. Too bad for us.
---
### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/153 "2011-08-26T22:31:38Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> For the last time, I have not said that any supernatural event should be
> accorded belief. Accepting the historical existence of people as Moses
> and events such as the Jews’ escape from Egypt does not create obligation
> to accept supernatural attachments concocted by those of supernaturalist
> persuasion.
I specifically asked you about your comments relating to **MrDibble** ’s lack of belief in events described in the Gospels, not in Exodus.
> [@](#):
>
> Our disagreement began when I felt obliged to point out that supernaturalist
> belief is a brute fact of utmost significance in the life of the human race,
> like it or not. You wish it would go away? Me too. Too bad for us.
Huh? That doesn’t make any sense at all. I’m saying that supernaturalism does not reflect the common experience of objective reality we share. I haven’t said anything about whether people actually believe in supernaturalism or not (obviously they do or they wouldn’t pray.)
Are you responding after having read some of my posts? If so, could you quote the ones you’re responding to?
---
### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/154 "2011-08-27T17:04:48Z")
> [@wevets](#):
>
> I specifically asked you about your comments relating to MrDibble’s lack of belief in events described in the Gospels, not in Exodus.
Not in your last post you didn’t, but if you had read all my posts with any
care you would not have needed to ask because it is obvious that my
replies pertain to the existence of Christ as well as Moses. Everything
supernatural is by implication addressed.
> [@wevets](#):
>
> Huh? That doesn’t make any sense at all. I’m saying that supernaturalism does not reflect the common experience of objective reality we share. I haven’t said anything about whether people actually believe in supernaturalism or not (obviously they do or they wouldn’t pray.)
>
> Are you responding after having read some of my posts? If so, could you quote the ones you’re responding to?
Your first reply to this thread, post #7 on page one, affected ignorance of
the topic where the topic was in fact clearly understandable. I feel that such
a potent force, defended in detail by several of the most potent intellects
ever known, should be accorded its full due whether you and me agree with
it or not.
Now, I really am tired of this conversation, and do not intend to pursue it
further. You seem like the kind’ a guy who can’t be happy unless he has the
last word on everything, so go for it, Bubba.
---
### Author:  [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)
#### Post date: [August 27, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-found-out-ive-been-presupposing-naturalism-my-whole-life-is-this-a-fallacy/592693/155 "2011-08-27T18:09:20Z")
I see what the problem is, **colonial**.
You may not be aware of a fallacy of logic known as [_argumentum ad populum_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum), which you can read about, but in short says that just because an idea is popular, does not mean that idea is more likely to be correct.
In all my posts in this thread, I have been discussing the truth value and logical status of supernaturalism vs. naturalism.
That’s why I’ve replied to you that your repeated appeals to the popularity of supernaturalism:
> [@colonial](#):
>
> My motivation for entering this thread was only to affirm the importance
> of supernatural characters and events in the perception of vast numbers
> of people.
> [@colonial](#):
>
> All this is true, but it does not present a case against the past and ongoing
> importance of the supernatural in the perception of billions of people.
> [@colonial](#):
>
> Our disagreement began when I felt obliged to point out that supernaturalist
> belief is a brute fact of utmost significance in the life of the human race,
> like it or not. You wish it would go away? Me too. Too bad for us.
Are not relevant, because it is an argumentum ad populum, and popularity has nothing to do with truth value. You should re-read the OP; it’s not about how popular naturalism or supernaturalism is, it’s about logical consistency in the pursuit these philosophies.
> [@colonial](#):
>
> > [@MrDibble](#):
> >
> > Fact of the matter is, I choose not to believe in a historical Jesus (as depicted in the Gospels, I don’t care about some hypothetical handyman named JoshuaBenJoseph) because there’s no direct evidence for his existence. Plain as that. Just like I choose not to believe in a historical Buddha for the same reason. Or a historical Orpheus.
>
> This specious approach inverses the error committed by scriptural fundamentalists:
> rather than believing on faith everything in the Bible even if uncorroborated,
> you believe nothing based on faith.
>
> I see no reason to alter my original comment, namely that despite lack of
> corroboration the early Jews probably had a leader named Moses.
> [@colonial](#):
>
> Not in your last post you didn’t, but if you had read all my posts with any
> care you would not have needed to ask because it is obvious that my
> replies pertain to the existence of Christ as well as Moses. Everything
> supernatural is by implication addressed.
Maybe you missed that the issue is whether Jesus existed as depicted in the Gospels or not? Despite that a lot of people believe in the Gospels, adhering to a Gospel-defined description of Jesus accepts supernatural events that you say you don’t believe in, so why accept a Gospel-defined description of Jesus?
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