# I Just Have to Say It - HA! In Your Face, U.S. Beef Industry **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744 "2005-06-24T22:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/21 "2005-06-25T18:09:15Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > You know, the people that rail against the meat industries…I grew up in ranch country, and I just can’t abide you types… > fuck. > fuckity, fuck, fuck, fuck… This is exactly the level of articulate rhetoric I would expect from a Texan rancher. Your feelings are entirely reciprocated by me. I wish the beef industry would disappear forever, and all your expletives aren’t going to make me feel differently; they’re only going to further convince me that you guys are neanderthals. > [@](#): > > No words…just hot red rage… Oh, I’d say you have at least one word down pat. Good for you! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/22 "2005-06-25T19:08:37Z")
**zuma** , you obviously read something into my OP that I didn’t intend. **Gorsnak** and **Raygun99** got it exactly right - I’ve been watching and listening to what has been happening to Alberta ranchers for the last couple years over the border closing, and like Gorsnak said, it could have been handled much, much better by the U.S. side. Frankly, what the U.S. did by closing their borders like that was in contravention of NAFTA as far as I know (if someone is better acquainted with it, come on down). But, like I also said in my OP, we’ve learned a great lesson from this. I hope we will never again be so shortsighted as to put most of our eggs in the basket of trading with the U.S. **Rubystreak** , you’re totally entitled to your opinion of the beef industry, of course. This really isn’t about whether it’s good or bad, though; it’s about the little guy watching as the big guy stubs his toe, too, and feeling a little _schadenfreude_ about how little help the big guy was when the little guy did it. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/23 "2005-06-25T19:11:05Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This is exactly the level of articulate rhetoric I would expect from a Texan rancher. Your feelings are entirely reciprocated by me. I wish the beef industry would disappear forever, and all your expletives aren’t going to make me feel differently; they’re only going to further convince me that you guys are neanderthals. > > Oh, I’d say you have at least one word down pat. Good for you! You are _such_ a cunt. Bitch. Yes, I am being inarticulate on purpose. I am college-educated and have an adequate vocabulary to match. When one is seething, it is most difficult to wax poetic with Victorian prose to express oneself. I shall now use adequate vocabulary: I wish upon you self-fornication with a particularly foully-diseased penile member from a male of the bovine species. As that is insufficient in itself, I also wish upon you that it become lodged in your rectum in such a fashion as to make it irretrievable, and thus require that it be forcibly removed from its previous owner and left in your newly-ravaged anal sphincter. Permanently. cunt ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/24 "2005-06-25T19:34:01Z")
Alright, you two, knock it off before I bang your heads together like two coconuts. [sub]Kids these days. Can’t have a good rant without next thing you know it, there’s rectums and penile members…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/25 "2005-06-25T20:07:19Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Yeah, well, except I could swear I read somewhere that incineration _doesn’t_ destroy the prions. Could be wrong. Hope like hell I’m wrong. I’m gonna have to call bullshit (Pun intended? You decide.;)). Prions are small protein fragments. It’s known that they can survive being cooked, but I can’t imagine how they could survive being INCINERATED. I wish CRorex were still around. He could probably clear this up. And **Rubystreak** , I’m with Drk on this one. Once you’er finished patting yourself on the back for showing how flawed and irrational he is, I suggest you think on how to spare the suffering of other people before you get all bleeding heart over those poor cows. After that, his suggestion as to what you oughta do strikes me as particularly sound. Fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/26 "2005-06-25T20:47:10Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > Alright, you two, knock it off before I bang your heads together like two coconuts. > ] Where did you get those Coconuts? This is a temperate zone. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/27 "2005-06-25T21:02:03Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > a scary bad piece of propagandist bull shit Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/28 "2005-06-25T21:32:08Z")
Why am I unsurprised that [the U.S. lobby group responsible for keeping the borders closed to Canadian cattle](http://www.foodconsumer.org/777/8/Suspect_Sample_Tests_Positive_for_BSE.shtml) is _still_ arguing that Canadian beef is unsafe? > [@](#): > > “Just the fact that Canada has had four cases of BSE in native cattle in the past two years suggests the prevalence rate of the disease is higher in Canada than in the United States,” noted McDonnell. “All four Canadian BSE cases came from Alberta – the primary source of Canadian exports of cattle and beef to the United States, which suggests there likely are more BSE-infected cattle in Alberta that could be sent to the U.S. if USDA lifts the ban on Canadian imports.” It’s clear that the way to control BSE is to control feedlot practices. Canada does this, just as the U.S. does. All of the incidents (on both sides of the border) have involved calves from before the bans on the bizarre practice of supplementing cattle feed with mechanically separated meat from other cattle. Everyone on both sides of the border has taken the necessary steps. We’re still seeing the effects of past behaviors. R-CALF isn’t protecting their herds or American consumers – they’re artificially increasing the price for U.S. beef. Great for them, not so great for American consumers, restaurateurs, food manufacturers, meat-packing plant operators and employees, etc. Crap for trade relations. It’s a pretty serious hit to our economy, yeah. In the long run, though, it’s liable to strengthen the industry. So thanks, R-CALF, and fuck y’all with a cattle prod. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/29 "2005-06-25T21:34:53Z")
Oh, I forgot a big shout out to Safeway et al for keeping the price of beef nice and high in their stores while the ranchers were selling top grade beef for cents a pound. You can’t have it both ways, big conglomerates. You tell us you have to raise the prices when there are problems with a crop, and therefore less product on the market. Now you tell us you can’t drop the price when there is a glut on the market, because it’s not just the ranchers involved, there’s meat packers, etc. all getting their cut. Go sell it somewhere else; I’m not buying. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/30 "2005-06-25T21:40:11Z")
Uh-I am off beef for all time now. Just made a decision–it’s not because I am afraid of getting this disease. I just can’t stand the nonsense at the ranching level, the stockyard level or the grocery store level, with the government regs etc. It just seems like such a scam, no? Ranchers literally cannot put food on their own table, yet everyone else is making a profit. If someone can 'splain all this to me, I might consider Beef Stroganoff again. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/31 "2005-06-25T21:47:05Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Since this is the Pit, I’m going to do a little schadenfreude dance for the upcoming destruction of the beef industry. I’m glad Nature has finally told all those corporate farming interests that their focus on the bottom line at the expense of living beings involved is FUCKED. This is what you get when you screw with an animal beyond recognition as the beef industry has done with the cow (not to mention the other animals it has ruthlessly driven from their habitats so that they can graze their mutant, drugged, cannibalistic cattle on public land). Looks like they’ve finally gone too far. In my heart of hearts, I hope the whole industry goes down in flames and eating beef becomes a thing of the past. Yeah, I know, fat chance, but a girl can dream, can’t she? Without commenting on whether **DirkGntly** ’s response to your post here was appropriate, I’d like to point out that you’re displaying a lovely mixture of ignorance and irrationality. Let’s dissect this a bit, shall we? Mutant. Well, I suppose in a sense modern beef critters are mutants. Not in any particularly interesting sense, though. You and I are mutants too, after all. (Dairy cows, now _those_ things are mutants! 😉 ) Most beef critters would do just fine if turned loose in their native habitats, outside of being insufficiently wary of predators - though even there they wouldn’t fare too badly. Not many predators could take on beef critters. Heck, even hereabouts it’s not uncommon for a few strays to wander free through the winter, and this is massively outside their native range, and much, much colder. Sure, they’re less likely to have horns, and they pack on more lean mass than optimal for survival in the wild (that much muscle mass requires a lot of food to maintain, to no real benefit for the cow), but they’re nothing like the abominations that are most dog breeds, with their inbred genetic diseases and deficiencies. I suggest you take the time to observe, say, a Charolais bull up close for a while, and then you can tell me that he’s grotesquely changed from his forebears. I don’t buy it for a second. Anyways, soybeans, wheat, lentils, and rice are all mutants by your standards too. So is every damn thing you eat except for any wild berries you might pick out in the country, or wild game if you’re a hunter (though somehow I don’t think that’s very likely). Drugged. What do you mean by this? Are you referring to the mass use of antibiotics? This is probably medically unwise, since it’s setting the industry up for some nasty drug-resistant diseases in the future, but in the short term it saves huge amounts of money on vet bills, and margins in the beef industry are tight enough that passing up on those savings is quite likely the difference between remaining financially solvent and going under for a lot of ranchers. Or do you mean bovine growth hormone? Not a drug, exactly, but something a lot of people like to squawk about. You are aware, of course, that bovine growth hormone is naturally produced in the bodies of cattle. Some naturally produce more than others. Are those ones drugged? And what if we supplemented those animals that naturally produce less, so that their levels were the same as the others. Would that be a problem? Why, exactly? How would they be different? And now if we selectively bred for higher hormone levels, would the resulting breed be drugged? Would there be any scientifically detectable difference in the resulting meat? No, there would not. Of course, they’d be mutants… :rolleyes: Cannibals grazing on public lands. Ah lovely. You have no fucking clue how the beef industry works, do you? You literally know nothing about how a beef operation operates. Well, without ignorance to be fought, we’d have no purpose here I guess. Look, if they’re grazing on public lands, they’ve been turned out to pasture for the season, and most likely aren’t being fed anything, let alone the remains of other cows. Furthermore, feeding ruminant protein to ruminants has been illegal for many years now. Herds of cannibalistic cows exist only in your fevered imagination. And if you’re going to complain that they’re still being fed other animal proteins, I respond: So? It’s unnatural, you say? Riiiiight. Look, it’s no more unnatural than your dog eating vegetables is. Practically no animals are 100% strict herbivores (or 100% strict carnivores, for that matter). Deal with it. As for farmers being concerned about their bottom lines at the expense of living creatures, I submit that you again don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Any rancher who isn’t concerned about keeping his cows happy is an idiot, and isn’t likely to last long. You see, unhappy cows are unhealthy cows. They don’t gain weight as quickly as happy cows. They miscarry at a higher rate. Mortality rates during calving are higher. Unhappy cows hurt the bottom line. Moreover, ranchers and farmers of all types have no choice but to be concerned first and foremost with their bottom lines. Margins on virtually all food products are very, very, very tight. It would be lovely if farmers were free to concern themselves with soothing all your irrational faux-eco worries about livestock welfare. But so long as this is a capitalist society, it’s not going to happen. Any farmer who doesn’t look first to the bottom line will shortly cease to be a farmer. If you want that to change, you have to engineer a wholesale structural change to our society, because nothing short of that will be effective. Let me know how that works out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/32 "2005-06-25T21:54:08Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Uh-I am off beef for all time now. > > Just made a decision–it’s not because I am afraid of getting this disease. I just can’t stand the nonsense at the ranching level, the stockyard level or the grocery store level, with the government regs etc. > > It just seems like such a scam, no? Ranchers literally cannot put food on their own table, yet everyone else is making a profit. > > If someone can 'splain all this to me, I might consider Beef Stroganoff again. Our local Farmer’s Market has ranchers marketing their product (not simply beef, either, but bison, elk, etc.) directly to the consumers. I am planning to make them my primary meat supplier. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/33 "2005-06-25T21:58:41Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Heck, even hereabouts it’s not uncommon for a few strays to wander free through the winter, and this is massively outside their native range, and much, much colder. In Toronto? :eek: [nature documentary voice] And here we see the majestic herd of majestic, mutant, drugged, cannibalistic cattle moving majestically through the majestic canyons of majestic Spadina Avenue. > [@](#): > > If you want that to change, you have to engineer a wholesale structural change to our society, because nothing short of that will be effective. Let me know how that works out for you. I’m not going to stop eating beef, at least not today, but I wouldn’t mind a bit if a sea change took place in the beef industry. More natural food, less antibiotics, yadda, yadda, yadda. As long as all the ranchers play by the same rules, the playing field will stay level. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/34 "2005-06-25T21:59:55Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This is exactly the level of articulate rhetoric I would expect from a Texan rancher. Your feelings are entirely reciprocated by me. I wish the beef industry would disappear forever, and all your expletives aren’t going to make me feel differently; they’re only going to further convince me that you guys are neanderthals. Blah blah blah, another strident anti-meat poster who wants other people to only eat the foods she prefers. Is is Saturday already? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/35 "2005-06-25T22:00:13Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This is exactly the level of articulate rhetoric I would expect from a Texan rancher. Your feelings are entirely reciprocated by me. I wish the beef industry would disappear forever, and all your expletives aren’t going to make me feel differently; they’re only going to further convince me that you guys are neanderthals. Blah blah blah, another strident anti-meat poster who wants other people to only eat the foods she prefers. Is it Saturday already? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/36 "2005-06-25T22:11:43Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > In Toronto? :eek: > > [nature documentary voice] > And here we see the majestic herd of majestic, mutant, drugged, cannibalistic cattle moving majestically through the majestic canyons of majestic Spadina Avenue. Toontown = Saskatoon, SK Not that there are any _Bos taurus_ wandering down our Spadina (it’s a Crescent, here) either. However, I grew up on a small farm nearby, and we had small herd of commercial beef. By happenstance, Dad sold all but three animals literally a week before the first Alberta BSE case was found. Rather fortuitous timing. My brother is shifting the operation to bison - which have been caught up in the export ban, too, as it covers all ruminants. However, he’s still small enough to sell all the meat directly to consumers, so even though the live prices for bison have crashed, he hasn’t been hurt too badly. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to stop eating beef, at least not today, but I wouldn’t mind a bit if a sea change took place in the beef industry. More natural food, less antibiotics, yadda, yadda, yadda. As long as all the ranchers play by the same rules, the playing field will stay level. Well sure. I wouldn’t mind that either. However, unless you regulate the industry to death (and pay for inspectors to ensure compliance), the simple rules of economics dictate that beef production will be optimized for economic efficiency. Or you could convince all consumers to demand those practices…but this is unlikely. Virtually all grocery shoppers shop by price. There’s a niche market for organic grass-fattened beef, but it’s a small niche. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/37 "2005-06-25T22:20:44Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Toontown = Saskatoon, SK Ah, my mistake. My grandparents were born near there. Left as quick as they could, and never looked back. I got drunk there once in my hitch-hiking days. I have now related all my Saskatoon anecdotes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/38 "2005-06-25T23:42:47Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > In my heart of hearts, I hope the whole **industry goes down in flames** and eating beef becomes a thing of the past. [Homer] Mmm… BBQ. [/Homer] ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/39 "2005-06-26T00:37:52Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I got drunk there once in my hitch-hiking days. I have now related all my Saskatoon anecdotes. Saskatoon’s awesome. Now _there’s_ a city what knows what art and entertainment is about. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744/40 "2005-06-26T00:54:10Z")
It’s certainly a city that punches above its weight. I mean, it’s basically Topeka with aspirations of being, like, St. Louis or something. I’d definitely live there again if all the cards lined up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-have-to-say-it-ha-in-your-face-u-s-beef-industry/309744.md?page=3)