# I just saw American History X... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604 "2002-04-09T03:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/1 "2002-04-09T03:21:50Z")
And I’m still trying to get my head around it. Quality film. Probably not something you could make up a bowl of popcorn and pop the tape in for, but still a great movie. I didn’t think it was going to be half as good as it was. Just… wow. I knew about the kiss-the-curb scene from other threads about this movie, and I didn’t think I was going to be able to take it. But by that point in the movie, the producers could have skinned a cat for real in loving close-up and I’d still stick around because I wanted to know what was going to happen next. ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/2 "2002-04-09T03:23:18Z")
One more thing… Ed Norton rules. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![ummm.yeahh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ummm.yeahh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ummm.yeahh)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/3 "2002-04-09T03:36:38Z")
Edward Norton has to be one of the best actors around. Anyone see him in “The Score”. Only guy I know that can be in a movie with De Nero and Brando and outact them both. Great movie (American History X) and hard to watch. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/4 "2002-04-09T03:42:48Z")
Ed Norton WAS superb in that film. He was equally convincing as an angry skinead AND as a basically decent guy. I don’t know any other actor who could have pulled off that dichotomy. Even when he’s a homicidal maniac, we still see the fun-lovig,decn kid underneath… but even when he’s a decent kid, we see the pent-up anger under the surface. However, the film itself wasn’t all that great. With any actor but Edward Norton, it would be a simplistic, predictable, ultra-violent ABC After-School Special. ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/5 "2002-04-09T04:01:21Z")
I saw The Score - and you’re right! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DarkWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee59a6/32.png) [@DarkWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/6 "2002-04-09T04:29:24Z")
_American History X_ was an awesome movie. I just sat there after it ended, and all I could think was “WOW.” I first saw Ed Norton in _Primal Fear_ with Richard Gere. He completely blew me away. He was also great in _The People vs Larry Flynt_. An amazing actor. Sheri ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/7 "2002-04-09T05:01:23Z")
He’s also pretty damn funny in _Death to Smoochie._ All that and comedy, too. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/8 "2002-04-09T05:02:16Z")
Thanks for reminding me of the “kiss the curb” scene. Now my damn teeth are bothering me like they did when I saw that film! I couldn’t quite understand why they picked Norton for _Fight Club_ (not that he did a bad job in the film) until I saw _American History X_ and then I realized that Norton, of course, was the _only_ choice for the role of “Jack” in _Fight Club_!🆒 ---
**Author:** ![easy\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb8c5e/32.png) [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/9 "2002-04-09T05:15:15Z")
American History X was the first Edward Norton movie I saw, and I concur–he was absolutely fabulous in that movie. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen many of his films–the only other Norton movies I’ve seen are Fight Club, The Score, Keeping the Faith (eek!), and part of The People Vs. Larry Flint. I definitely think he’s one of the better actors of “this generation.” ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/10 "2002-04-09T07:04:56Z")
What I thought made the movie great was that it wasn’t some hugfest about how minorities are _great_ people, just that they were people, and as such undeserving of being hated. Or something like that. And there was no hokey happy ending in that all the gangbangers were invited over for dinner. I think this realism makes it a lot more palatable for kids, and why it is a more effective means of education than after school specials. This movie should be shown in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/11 "2002-04-09T15:03:46Z")
Eh. I watched the beginning and didn’t really know what to think, so I left. Now don’t get me wrong - I’m downright evil, but I honestly don’t understand racial violence and hatred, so the movie was seemed like an excercise in trying to bother people to me. I won’t say I don’t think racism is a problem, obviously _somebody_ has a problem with it, but I don’t and it made the film smack of self-importance. I might get dragged to the Pit for this, but I feel racism wouldn’t be a problem if folks would let it go. There’s no reason for it, we should be past it. Leave it in the past where it belongs. [sub]Cringing as more high-minded folks prepare to flay me alive for my supposed “naivete”[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/12 "2002-04-09T16:38:25Z")
Ah yes. American History X. The movie that posits anal rape as the solution to racism. One wonders, will the film be remembered on its own merits, such as they are, or for being the movie that ended the career of Allen Smithee. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Teerious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Miss\_Teerious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Teerious)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/13 "2002-04-09T22:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*One wonders, will the film be remembered on its own merits, such as they are, or for being the movie that ended the career of Allen Smithee. \*\* What? How? (p.s. i do know what/who allen smithee is, but i’m sure how it/he is connected to _American History X_… ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/14 "2002-04-10T02:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miss Teerious \* > \*\* > > What? How? (p.s. i do know what/who allen smithee is, but i’m sure how it/he is connected to _American History X_… \*\* The director of American History X had turned in a cut of the film that was not so heavy on the Ed Norton shots. Someone decided to let Ed Norton into the editing room and he cut a lot of his close-ups and basketball playing back in. The director went a bit ballistic about it, taking out full-page ads in Variety criticising Norton, the producers, etc. and finally asked for an Allen Smithee credit. The problem was that a condition of an Allen Smithee credit is that the director not speak publicly about the dispute. Oops. The Directors Guild of America offered to let him put any other name on the picture he wanted. He chose “Humpty Dumpty,” which wasn’t approved. So the film got released with his name on it. The secrecy around the Allen Smithee pseudonym had been breaking down already and this controversy (along with the film Burn Hollywood Burn) killed it. The DGA now has a secret list of five pseudonyms for disgruntled directors to choose from, or the director can suggest a name. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/15 "2002-04-10T03:02:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miss Teerious \* > \*\* > > What? How? (p.s. i do know what/who allen smithee is, but i’m sure how it/he is connected to _American History X_… \*\* The director of American History X had turned in a cut of the film that was not so heavy on the Ed Norton shots. Someone decided to let Ed Norton into the editing room and he cut a lot of his close-ups and basketball playing back in. The director went a bit ballistic about it, taking out full-page ads in Variety criticising Norton, the producers, etc. and finally asked for an Allen Smithee credit. The problem was that a condition of an Allen Smithee credit is that the director not speak publicly about the dispute. Oops. The Directors Guild of America offered to let him put any other name on the picture he wanted. He chose “Humpty Dumpty,” which wasn’t approved. So the film got released with his name on it. The secrecy around the Allen Smithee pseudonym had been breaking down already and this controversy (along with the film Burn Hollywood Burn) killed it. The DGA now has a secret list of five pseudonyms for disgruntled directors to choose from, or the director can suggest a name. ---
**Author:** ![moe.ron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed8c4c/32.png) [@moe.ron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moe.ron)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/16 "2002-04-10T07:14:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daowajan \* > \*\* > > I knew about the kiss-the-curb scene from other threads about this movie, and I didn’t think I was going to be able to take it. But by that point in the movie, the producers could have skinned a cat for real in loving close-up and I’d still stick around because I wanted to know what was going to happen next. \*\* I’ve had nightmares ahout that scene, as I imagine everyone else who has ever seen the movie has. It mixes a fear of racial-violence, dentists, and being thrown out of a car at high velocities (kind of). I think I’d rather eat lead,than have that happen to me. It would be quicker, and I wouldn’t ever have to see the dentist again, and have to get porcelain teeth 😃 … \< then closing my mouth, then hiding in a sheild of pillows\> ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/17 "2002-04-10T14:12:34Z")
Otto- I’m as ambivalent about the film as you (as I said, despite Norton’s brilliant performance, there’s something of an ABC After-school special air to the whole film). Still, the rape is NOT what “cured” Norton’s character of his bigotry. Long before that scene, he’d gotten a chance to see for himself what phonies and losers his Aryan “heroes” were. And he’d gotten a chance to make black friends. And, as a typical “guy,” I found it very believable that shared dirty jokes would be the catalyst that allowed a skinhead and a black convict to become friends. Underneath all the anger, Norton was still a normal guy with a normal guy’s love of stupid, adolescent humor. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/18 "2002-04-10T16:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > \*\*And, as a typical “guy,” I found it very believable that shared dirty jokes would be the catalyst that allowed a skinhead and a black convict to become friends. Underneath all the anger, Norton was still a normal guy with a normal guy’s love of stupid, adolescent humor. \*\* Not to mention an idealist with little tolerance for hypocrisy, let down by his cause. I also didn’t see the “anal rape is the solution” message. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/19 "2002-04-10T17:40:06Z")
OK, obviously I was being facetious, but the “open his butt and you’ll open his mind” thing came through loud and clear to me and to the friends I watched the movie with. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604/20 "2002-04-10T18:38:24Z")
OK, prison rape is a horrible thing, but in _American History X_\*, the guy who nails Edward Norton is HOT! And, I think the rape scene was not the catalyst for the charactr’s change of heart, but the final break with his Aryan gang. He had already been friendly with the black guy in the laundry and on the b-ball court, which is what led to the rape. It’s also a shame that the director, Tony Kaye, ruined his career by his inane and antagonistic press stunts, when he could have used this movie to launch a successful Hollywood career. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-saw-american-history-x/102604.md?page=2)