# I just taught my nephew to tie his shoes... he's 12 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 16, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838 "2011-10-16T19:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/21 "2011-10-17T02:19:17Z")
It’s the twenty-first century. Does it really matter? Palmer Method seems to have gone by the board as well. But so has shunting dyslexic kids to the special-ed room. Fewer and fewer shoes have laces, so less need to tie them. Sure, it’s a skill, but it’s not something like reading a paper map, that could someday save a life. How little do we have to need a skill before we can give up on it? I think the issue is that it’s a milestone for many people: the glorious day you learned to tie your shoes. But is it really that important for physical or intellectual development? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/22 "2011-10-17T03:14:27Z")
Yeah, it’s important. It might not be the most important milestone on the road to adulthood and independence, but it is one. ---
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/23 "2011-10-17T03:28:58Z")
My husband is 48 and kind of taught himself as a kid. He ties his in a way that doesn’t resemble anything I’ve ever seen on another shoe. They don’t stay tied, either. Velcro shoes came on the scene after I had already been tying for a while, but I remember my mom ranting that it would become a lost skill, like telling time and arithmetic without a calculator. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/24 "2011-10-17T03:41:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I suspect it wasn’t that I was lazy or dumb, but that my fine motor skills weren’t finely developed until I hit about eight years old. > > Though it is weird that the kid learned so fast when you intervened, **Palo Verde**. Maybe you’re like the Anne Sullivan for people who can’t tie their shoes! I think the point was that the OP’s nephew has no reason not to be able to tie his own shoes except that he never learned, probably because no on really bothered to try to teach him. It’s a fairly small thing that’s easily overlooked (which is what happened to all the kids I spoke of in my post), but a step on the road to independence. I don’t think that kids with specific reasons that they can’t tie their shoes are in the same category. And I can’t see that anyone has called any kids lazy or dumb in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/25 "2011-10-17T03:41:39Z")
The knot you use to tie your shoes is also used for lots of other things, like hair bows and brown paper packages tied up with string. Even if you have velcro shoes all your life, it’s a useful little knot to know. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/26 "2011-10-17T03:43:43Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > For years, I tied my shoes “backwards,” because my father was facing me when he taught me how. To this day, I sometimes have to stop and concentrate to decide which hand makes the loop and which circles the loop. (Yes, it does seem to matter, because the laces don’t stay tied as well when done the mirror image way.) After my grandfather had his stroke I normally drew the day shift in sitting with him after he was discharged. This involved waking him up, a potty trip, bathing him, and helping him get dressed. I discovered I could not tie his shoes. :smack: I was at a complete loss as to how to tie shoes that weren’t on my feet. I actually had to ask my mother (a nurse’s aid) how to do that. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/27 "2011-10-17T04:57:04Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > For years, I tied my shoes “backwards,” because my father was facing me when he taught me how. To this day, I sometimes have to stop and concentrate to decide which hand makes the loop and which circles the loop. (Yes, it does seem to matter, because the laces don’t stay tied as well when done the mirror image way.) I’ve read that a lot of left-handed people are poor at it for this reason. I’m successful at it about 80% of the time, but the rest of the time I don’t pay enough attention and tie them backwards too. I never notice at the time, but if they’ve come undone within an hour, I did it wrong. As an odd aside, my parents don’t know how I learned to tie my shoes or blow my nose: they never figured out a way to teach either and never tried to, and so were surprised that I learned how to do both quite young. ---
**Author:** ![ecseas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ecseas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecseas)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/28 "2011-10-17T06:58:32Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Poor kid. > > Lazy parents. not necessarily. My mum and my grandma (I was raised by both) both tried to teach me. they even brought me a fancy book to try and teach me. No matter what, I couldn’t get it. It wasn’t until I was in grade two, and my teacher noticed and she showed me a different way to tie my shoes. I was able to pick up that way instantly. fast forward to today, I am now 18, and still tie my shoes the way she taught me, and I still haven’t been able to tie them like the rest of my family. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/29 "2011-10-17T08:23:11Z")
> [@Silver\_Tyger](#): > > Round laces are terrible about coming loose. [This](http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/surgeonknot.htm) is a good fix. Wouldn’t flat laces be an even better, easier fix? I’ve never really understood why anybody even bothers with round laces. My parents never taught me a whole lot of things. (There was another recent thread on that question, but I didn’t participate there. Too many things, too embarrassing.) They just always figured that I would figure things out myself, or I would ask, “when I am ready”. I somehow figured out _all by my very self_ how to tie shoes in about 3nd grade. Ditto putting on a jacket. I could otherwise dress myself just fine, but somehow it never even occurred to me that putting on a jacket might be at least a _little bit_ similar to putting on a shirt. I finally got tired of asking the teacher to tie my shoes and help me on with the coat when all the other little kiddies were making fun of me. I’ve never to this day learned (or cared) to jump rope. I’ve also never learned to ride a bicycle, although I wish I had. I only recently learned to shave with an actual razor (rather than an electric one, when I finally figured out that all electric razors are junk). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/30 "2011-10-17T09:33:10Z")
Where is this world where the majority of shoes don’t need to be tied? It’s not like wearing a tie. Heck, I’ve never even seen velcro shoes in adult sizes or even large kids’ sizes (i.e. the 1-4 range). And, as far as I know, they don’t even make slip-on sneakers, which makes sense since such would lose the advantage such shoes have. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/22080_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/31 "2011-10-17T09:53:02Z")
Years ago, we were invited by my husband’s coworker to come to their place for dinner. At the time, our daughter would have been about 9 or 10 and their kids would have been 8, 10, and 11-ish. Their mother still cut their meat for them. OK, maybe not terrible for the 8-y/o, but if you won’t trust your 10 and 11-y/o kids to use a knife at the dinner table, you’re way too much of a helicopter parent. I had mental images of these kids in college staring bewildered at an uncut porkchop in the dining hall. :rolleyes: When I was going thru Navy bootcamp, a number of my fellow recruits had no idea how to do laundry, iron, or fold their own clothes. I still remember the one girl who tossed all of her clothes, regardless of color, into the washer… with bleach… Suddenly, all those stoopit chores Mom made me do as a kid made a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/32 "2011-10-17T12:12:58Z")
I sell hiking boots and I’m amazed how many adults can’t tie their shoes properly. Oh sure, they can tie them, but they learned how do it wrong, so the laces consistently come untied. Also, many don’t seem to realize that the laces are what makes a shoe fit the girth of the foot. They walk around with loosely tied shoes (bad idea for boots) complaining about how they get blisters. It truly boggles my mind. What I teach people is to tie a surgeon’s knot on the first knot (the first looping of the laces): loop twice instead of once. Added tension keeps the laces from loosening while tying the finishing knot and also keeps the laces from loosening while walking around. Then, while tying the finishing knot (the bow), wrap the lace around the loop twice again to create a double slip knot. If you are a bunny ears knotter, just send both loops through the hole in the middle (one side forward, the other backward) to create the same knot. Again, the added tension in the finishing knot keeps the laces from loosening and eventually coming untied. That method is especially helpful for round laces (and waxed round laces) that seem to give people so much trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/33 "2011-10-17T12:18:53Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Wouldn’t flat laces be an even better, easier fix? I’ve never really understood why anybody even bothers with round laces. For boots, round laces tend to be more durable. For dress shoes, round laces tend to look nicer. Flat laces are for sport shoes. And no, learning to tie a useful knot properly is the best fix. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/34 "2011-10-17T12:47:47Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > My kids came along with the advent of digital clocks. They all did fine with learning how to tell time with an analog, except for my daughter. She was still having trouble with it when she left home at 18 and I’m not sure she’s mastered it yet at 38. lol, i find this oddly reassuring.I know lazy kids who will otherwise walk down the hall to the digital display rather than read the clock face in front of them…😕 :o :eek::dubious:☹ ---
**Author:** ![Marconi\_N.Cheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Marconi\_N.Cheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marconi_N.Cheese)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/35 "2011-10-17T12:48:45Z")
When I was a kid, all we had was laces, Velcro hadn’t made it into the consumer market. I’ve probably only owned one or two pairs of Velcro shoes. Do dress shoes come Velcro style? Either way, knowledge of a few basic knots is not wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Stauderhorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Stauderhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stauderhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/36 "2011-10-17T12:57:01Z")
I didn’t know how to tie my shoes until I was 9, when a family friend taught me. I had a little trouble with the process, and instead of teaching me until I had fully learned it, my mom just bought velcro shoes until that point or tied them herself. She was the kind of person who’d rather do basic things for me rather than have the patience to teach me. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/37 "2011-10-17T13:00:13Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > \>snip\< Their mother still cut their meat for them. OK, maybe not terrible for the 8-y/o, \>snip\< > > Suddenly, all those stoopit chores Mom made me do as a kid made a lot more sense. Yeah, terrible for an 8-year-old, I reckon. Not terrible for 5 or 6. Like you, **FairyChatMom** I often silently thank my mum for all the stoopit chores she made me do. And I think that as a kid, it’s good to realise that the more you learn, the more you learn. I too, know a 12-year-old who can’t tie shoelaces. His mother often whinges about the limited styles with velcro closures :rolleyes: It makes me want to scream, “He’s TWELVE! Not TWO!!” but hey, he’s a genius in the making. Just won’t be able to tie his own fucking shoes…or do anything else that’s practical, or part of the process of day-to-day living. God knows it’s a confusing world when everything doesn’t open or close with velcro. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/38 "2011-10-17T13:35:04Z")
> [@Silver\_Tyger](#): > > I can’t do it the way most people do. Some people look at me funny because I do it bunny ears style. Bunny ears style is equivalent to the loop-and-rope method. The only difference is that the loose end of your wrapping bunny ear is temporarily in your hand. Once you finish the knot and let go, that loose end flops free just like in the rope method. That is, the last thing to touch that loose end - the only thing pinning it in place - is where it touches the other loop. In both methods, it dangles freely from that crossing point. > [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > For years, I tied my shoes “backwards,” because my father was facing me when he taught me how. To this day, I sometimes have to stop and concentrate to decide which hand makes the loop and which circles the loop. (Yes, it does seem to matter, because the laces don’t stay tied as well when done the mirror image way.) It doesn’t matter which is the rope and which is the loop. What matters is which crosses in front and which crosses in the back. Even this would be irrelevant if it wasn’t for the “base knot” having been done in a certain direction. To tie a proper square knot, just be sure that the second crossing (ears or ropes or whatever) are the opposite of the way the first was done. Your problem is you’re tying a granny knot, which comes loose with fiddling. A square knot tightens itself the more you fiddle with it. You’re crossing (presumably) right over left and then crossing the (new) right over the (new) left. You can either switch your base knot or your top knot to do it the right way. BTW, I realize it _looks like_ one rope is holding still and the other is doing the wrapping, but this is just an illusion. They’re both wrapping around each other in the end. Don’t believe me? Tie your base knot with the left string perfectly straight, being the “passive” rope. When you’re done, try straightening out the right string, and you’ll see that the left string is now spiraled around the right, opposite of what you started with. It’s because “straight” is just a matter of perspective, not of the knot itself. > [@BigT](#): > > Where is this world where the majority of shoes don’t need to be tied? It’s not like wearing a tie. Heck, I’ve never even seen velcro shoes in adult sizes or even large kids’ sizes (i.e. the 1-4 range). And, as far as I know, they don’t even make slip-on sneakers, which makes sense since such would lose the advantage such shoes have. Loafers, dude. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/39 "2011-10-17T14:38:54Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Your problem is you’re tying a granny knot, which comes loose with fiddling. A square knot tightens itself the more you fiddle with it. You’re crossing (presumably) right over left and then crossing the (new) right over the (new) left. You can either switch your base knot or your top knot to do it the right way. Holy cow. I think I’ve just discovered I’ve been doing it wrong all my life. I found [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7JNFsk1ER4&feature=related), and from the looks of my underlying knot, it is a granny, not a square. Now I have to undo thirty-odd years of muscle memory and remember to do the base knot the opposite of how I normally do it. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838/40 "2011-10-17T16:23:02Z")
Technically, I still don’t know how to tie my shoes - the “adult way” that is. I use the “rabbit ears” method I learned as a kid, and it’s served me well. But apparently there is another (better?) way of doing it, and I just never cared to learn it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-taught-my-nephew-to-tie-his-shoes-hes-12/599838.md?page=3)