# I know, here's my hat... uneven modding **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 6, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268 "2020-05-06T14:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/61 "2020-05-07T01:49:52Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Yeah, that is where I stand. > > I’ve said what I need to say. I can’t prove any mod action taken against me had any particular bias and a single instance isn’t going to convince anyone. > > But there is a pattern that has emerged, and each individual case can be dismissed. Over the years, those cases have added up, and it is still ignored that it is happening. So this is just one more case. Well, **OP** , I’ll be on the veranda if you need me, since you’re already on the cross. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/62 "2020-05-07T01:50:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > So what you’re saying is that there is a clear moderator bias against people who violate the board rules, as evidenced by the fact that people who **don’t** break the board rules are almost never given warnings whereas people that do often are? Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Well, no. Sometimes we just ban people at random for no reason at all. But there’s no bias to it.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/63 "2020-05-07T04:11:01Z")
I have nothing to say about cmosdes position that hasn’t already been said so I’ll leave that there. However, this: > [@Velocity](#): > > Now, some of the topics in that above list (such as 9/11 Truthers, climate-change denial, Holocaust denial, etc.) are banned because they are wrong, but some others are banned because they are offensive. is entirely a misinterpretation of the rule as stated. The ‘Tired Topics’ rule isn’t about whether a topic is ‘wrong’ or ‘offensive’. Rather, moderation staff is tired of having to referee endless arguments - not debates - that are non-productive, cause hard feelings in posters and potentially ulcers in moderators. In general, I prefer not - when acting as a moderator - to take a position on whether either side is right or wrong in any debate. That’s not my role. Likewise, it’s perfectly possible to debate issues that others find offensive. Velocity, I believe you may be misinterpreting the rule due to my closing a thread you started as a violation of the ‘Scientific Racism’ Tired Topic. You may rest assured that, from the text of the rule (that you somehow forgot to quote in its entirety): > [@](#): > > **Thrice Told Tales are off limits.** Over the last 20 years, posters in Great Debates and Politics and Elections have debated pretty much everything. As such, there are some contentious issues about which we are tired of hearing. We just don’t want to go around and around about these things any more. In general, we’re just tired of these subjects. It may, however, be that there’s something new under the sun. Posters may start threads on these subjects only with prior approval of a Great Debates or Politics and Elections moderator. If you think you’ve got a new angle on something we’ve discussed a million times and found unpleasant, please feel free to make your case. Getting one approved is a very heavy lift, however. > > [ul] > [li]Scientific racism or any particular argument about why any particular group of humans is inherently better than any other group[/li][li]Holocaust Denial. Seriously, guys. If someone wants to seriously debate whether the holocaust occurred, we can safely say they’re not someone we want here[/li][li]Encouraging discrimination against any minority groups. This can include race, gender, sexual orientation or any other group into which a person might belong. Such depresses debate and discussion and in contrary to the goals of Great Debates and Elections[/li][li]Men’s Rights Advocacy. This can include threads about how men are somehow disadvantaged in society, women are somehow genetically inferior or have a predisposition toward specific gender roles and other threads about the ways in which men are somehow naturally entitled to be in charge[/li][li]9/11 Truthers. This includes any information about how either 9/11 didn’t happen, it was a false flag operation by the government or any other idea that denies the events of that day.[/li][li]Climate Change Denialism. We believe the science. While there is room to debate ways to deal with climate change, the existence of such is an observed fact.[/li][/ul] it is clear that such things - new innovations of them - MAY be debated provided there’s some new angle that moderation approves in advance. There’s not one thing in that rule that states any topic is banned due to being ‘wrong’ or being ‘offensive’. I apologize if that wasn’t clear earlier. I hope it is moreso now. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/64 "2020-05-07T04:16:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Well, no. Sometimes we just ban people at random for no reason at all. But there’s no bias to it.😉 And sometimes you ban everybody! [Oprah] _You_ get a ban! And _you_ get a ban! And _you_ get a ban! _Everybody_ gets a ban! [/Oprah] ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/65 "2020-05-07T04:17:06Z")
OK, got it, thanks for the clarification. (replying to Jonathan Chance) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/66 "2020-05-07T13:00:17Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > The ‘Tired Topics’ rule isn’t about whether a topic is ‘wrong’ or ‘offensive’. Did you help write that rule? Because what you quoted suggests otherwise, at least in part: > [@The Rule](#): > > Holocaust Denial. Seriously, guys. If someone wants to seriously debate whether the holocaust occurred, we can safely say they’re not someone we want here > Encouraging discrimination against any minority groups. This can include race, gender, sexual orientation or any other group into which a person might belong. Such depresses debate and discussion and in contrary to the goals of Great Debates and Elections > Men’s Rights Advocacy. This can include threads about how men are somehow disadvantaged in society, women are somehow genetically inferior or have a predisposition toward specific gender roles and other threads about the ways in which men are somehow naturally entitled to be in charge > 9/11 Truthers. This includes any information about how either 9/11 didn’t happen, it was a false flag operation by the government or any other idea that denies the events of that day. > Climate Change Denialism. We believe the science. While there is room to debate ways to deal with climate change, the existence of such is an observed fact. Emphasis added. I get that you’re uncomfortable as a moderator taking a position on whether climate science (for example) is right or wrong. But the administration appears to disagree–and folks agitated for years for this change, and it’s a pretty major change for the better. Some topics it’s okay for a private messageboard to have an official position on. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/67 "2020-05-07T13:45:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you help write that rule? Because what you quoted suggests otherwise, at least in part: > > Emphasis added. > > I get that you’re uncomfortable as a moderator taking a position on whether climate science (for example) is right or wrong. But the administration appears to disagree–and folks agitated for years for this change, and it’s a pretty major change for the better. Some topics it’s okay for a private messageboard to have an official position on. Dude, I wrote those rules. Conceived them, drafted them, shared them with the mod loop and rewrote them. My DNA is all through them. Without my advocacy they would not be in place today. Yes, there are established truths in the world. I don’t at all disagree. But the position of the SDMB is that it should not, by and large, have official positions. I, and we, are not your allies. My main concern with those Tired Topics rules was not to provide some sort of safe haven for a point of view. It’s why I left some wiggle room in those rules for actually posting topics on, say, Climate Change providing some new evidence comes to the fore that makes reassessment, then it will no longer be Tired and, like the first bloom of spring, be alive and optimistic again. I can’t imagine what information that would be, but I have to acknowledge that such may someday occur. Had I truly believe some things are not alive for debate at all I would not have included the possibility of reopening such issues ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/68 "2020-05-07T13:50:28Z")
First of all, there are, always have been, and forever will be individual differences among judges, referees, umpires, moderators, what have you. Seasoned athletes, for example, will often ask, “What crew do we have for tonight?” They tailor their games accordingly in order to achieve the best chance of success that night. They don’t go out on the court with the attitude that it’s unfair Jones doesn’t ref like Smith and that they are going to play the way they want and whine when it doesn’t work out. Secondly, I see from the responses that you overlooked mentioning inconsistencies and other relevant information that would cast you in a bad light. That certainly doesn’t help your cause. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/69 "2020-05-07T14:06:49Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yes, there are established truths in the world. I don’t at all disagree. But the position of the SDMB is that it should not, by and large, have official positions. I, and we, are not your allies. > > My main concern with those Tired Topics rules was not to provide some sort of safe haven for a point of view. It’s why I left some wiggle room in those rules for actually posting topics on, say, Climate Change providing some new evidence comes to the fore that makes reassessment, then it will no longer be Tired and, like the first bloom of spring, be alive and optimistic again. I can’t imagine what information that would be, but I have to acknowledge that such may someday occur. It’s a great policy and this is a great explanation of it. IMO, the Tired Topic policy should also include “moderators are targeting me because of my opinions or ideology”. That shit should go straight to PM. If it hits the boards it should be an instant mod action and thread closure. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/70 "2020-05-07T14:25:41Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > IMO, the Tired Topic policy should also include “moderators are targeting me because of my opinions or ideology”… Ooh, can we vote on Tired Topics? I’d like to include any discussion where someone uses the phrase “SDMB hive mind”. It’s always used with a whiny tone, as if to say “My opinions would be acknowledged as Truth… if only every single person here wasn’t united against me before I even showed up.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/71 "2020-05-07T14:47:18Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Dude, I wrote those rules. Conceived them, drafted them, shared them with the mod loop and rewrote them. My DNA is all through them. Without my advocacy they would not be in place today. > > Yes, there are established truths in the world. I don’t at all disagree. But the position of the SDMB is that it should not, by and large, have official positions. I, and we, are not your allies. Okay. I don’t at all see how you square saying “The ‘Tired Topics’ rule isn’t about whether a topic is ‘wrong’ or ‘offensive’” with saying “We believe the science. While there is room to debate ways to deal with climate change, the existence of such is an observed fact.” But this is a pretty minor point, and if you see those two statements as compatible, cool. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/72 "2020-05-07T15:05:23Z")
Since the thread is shifting direction… _“Moderation staff is tired of having to referee endless arguments - not debates - that are non-productive, cause hard feelings in posters and potentially ulcers in moderators”_ By this logic, Trump ought to be No. 1 on the topic list. We have had more threads about Trump in the past few years than we have had about 9/11 Truthers, climate-change denial, Holocaust denial, scientific racism, etc. **combined**. And pretty much any debate about Trump can be summed up as _“non-productive (doesn’t win or persuade anyone,) causes hard feelings in posters, and potentially ulcers in moderators.”_ Indeed, even discussions about gun control often fit that billing. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/73 "2020-05-07T15:33:06Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Ooh, can we vote on Tired Topics? I’d like to include any discussion where someone uses the phrase “SDMB hive mind”. > > It’s always used with a whiny tone, as if to say “My opinions would be acknowledged as Truth… if only every single person here wasn’t united against me before I even showed up.” You can, digs! It’s in the rules. Posters may submit potential new ‘Tired Topics’ for consideration. I stressed that adding them would be a heavy lift, though. Several have been sent to me for consideration and none - so far - have gotten through mod consideration for addition to the list. My own suggestion of discussion of any baseball team other than the Chicago Cubs or players on my fantasy team was a non-starter, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/74 "2020-05-07T15:35:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Since the thread is shifting direction… > > _“Moderation staff is tired of having to referee endless arguments - not debates - that are non-productive, cause hard feelings in posters and potentially ulcers in moderators”_ > > By this logic, Trump ought to be No. 1 on the topic list. We have had more threads about Trump in the past few years than we have had about 9/11 Truthers, climate-change denial, Holocaust denial, scientific racism, etc. **combined**. And pretty much any debate about Trump can be summed up as _“non-productive (doesn’t win or persuade anyone,) causes hard feelings in posters, and potentially ulcers in moderators.”_ Indeed, even discussions about gun control often fit that billing. While this may be true, Velocity, it is also non-productive to piss into the wind. Trump is, simply put, the largest discussion topic in the United States right now. That’s certainly the way he seems to want it and it’s how things seem to be going. Nonetheless, should you wish to propose Trump topics - there are certainly many - as tired feel free to put your reasoning together in a PM to me and I’ll be glad to share it with the mod loop as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/75 "2020-05-07T15:36:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Since the thread is shifting direction… > > _“Moderation staff is tired of having to referee endless arguments - not debates - that are non-productive, cause hard feelings in posters and potentially ulcers in moderators”_ > > By this logic, Trump ought to be No. 1 on the topic list. We have had more threads about Trump in the past few years than we have had about 9/11 Truthers, climate-change denial, Holocaust denial, scientific racism, etc. **combined**. And pretty much any debate about Trump can be summed up as _“non-productive (doesn’t win or persuade anyone,) causes hard feelings in posters, and potentially ulcers in moderators.”_ Indeed, even discussions about gun control often fit that billing. **Moderating** By that token, let’s not hijack this into a discussion of Trump, or a general discussion of Tired Topics. If you want to discuss which topics should be included in that category, start a new thread. In this thread, it’s a hijack. Colibri Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/76 "2020-05-07T15:40:25Z")
OK, will do. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/77 "2020-05-07T15:45:31Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > By that token, let’s not hijack this into a discussion of Trump, or a general discussion of Tired Topics. If you want to discuss which topics should be included in that category, start a new thread. In this thread, it’s a hijack. > > Colibri > Moderator I find this moderating very uneven, and too colorful. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/78 "2020-05-07T15:50:17Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > First of all, there are, always have been, and forever will be individual differences among judges, referees, umpires, moderators, what have you. Seasoned athletes, for example, will often ask, “What crew do we have for tonight?” They tailor their games accordingly in order to achieve the best chance of success that night. They don’t go out on the court with the attitude that it’s unfair Jones doesn’t ref like Smith and that they are going to play the way they want and whine when it doesn’t work out. Some posters expect much more “consistency” here than is ever present in real life. Everybody understands that there are hanging judges and soft touches, umpires with tight and loose strike zones, and that you have a better chance of getting a ticket if the cop has just had a fight with his wife. I think we achieve more consistency here than in real life. Often, as here, claims of inconsistency focus on the fact that although the complainant acknowledges that they broke the rules, someone else somewhere at some time who did the same thing got a note instead of a warning. This is not a valid argument. If you break the rules, you are liable for a warning. If you go 60 mph in a 55 mph zone, you are liable for a ticket even if the cop hasn’t ticketed every single other driver who has ever done the same thing. The only way to be absolutely consistent about the rules is to invariably give warnings for any offense, and never show leniency in any circumstance. Nobody should be let off because it was a first offense, a sensitive topic, or so forth. I guarantee people would be very upset if we tried to apply the Robotic Theory of Moderation, because we would be issuing way more warnings and more people would end up banned. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/79 "2020-05-07T16:18:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Some posters expect much more “consistency” here than is ever present in real life. Everybody understands that there are hanging judges and soft touches, umpires with tight and loose strike zones, and that you have a better chance of getting a ticket if the cop has just had a fight with his wife. I think we achieve more consistency here than in real life. > > Often, as here, claims of inconsistency focus on the fact that although the complainant acknowledges that they broke the rules, someone else somewhere at some time who did the same thing got a note instead of a warning. This is not a valid argument. If you break the rules, you are liable for a warning. If you go 60 mph in a 55 mph zone, you are liable for a ticket even if the cop hasn’t ticketed every single other driver who has ever done the same thing. > > The only way to be absolutely consistent about the rules is to invariably give warnings for any offense, and never show leniency in any circumstance. Nobody should be let off because it was a first offense, a sensitive topic, or so forth. I guarantee people would be very upset if we tried to apply the Robotic Theory of Moderation, because we would be issuing way more warnings and more people would end up banned. You might have a point if the distribution of tickets was even across a wide spectrum of violators. If the same cop is giving one demographic tickets for doing 55.1 in a 55 and letting another demographic go 80 in the same zone, it is ill conceived to claim that the person doing 55.1 really shouldn’t be complaining since they were speeding, after all. That is the point you and many others are missing. You make all the claims that MY particular case has no merit, which is all well and good (and it is rather weak case), but get enough of them and all of a sudden you might start to realize there is a fundamental bias happening the is endemic to this board. “That cite doesn’t count because it was in the pit!” “That cite doesn’t count because it was a different offense!” “That cite doesn’t count because it was a different moderator!” What is being said is that insulting another user is a lesser offense than violating a technical rule that neither insults the poster nor attempt to deceive. It is doing 55.1 in a 55 zone while doing 80 in that same zone is let go. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268/80 "2020-05-07T16:29:14Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > While true, that part you are missing is that posters with conforming opinions are far less likely to be warned. Have you done some sort of data analysis on that, or is it just butt-hurt opinion? Nobody likes to get a warning (I have one on my Permanent Record that bugged me for a long time). But we’ve had flaming assholes on this board who have been here for years without getting hammered, because outside of The Pit they’re able to have somewhat cogent arguments about politics and other subjects without incurring ModWrath, and who can read and follow fora rules. [shameless and obsequious bootlicking]I think the moderation here is far better than most sites like this, or even sites that have Disqus comment sections, where moderation is usually poor[/SOB]. I wouldn’t want the job, as it seems like it would be a total PITA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-heres-my-hat-uneven-modding/853268.md?page=5)