# I know nothing about Arab culture, but I feel free to rant on about it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 2, 2003, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921 "2003-04-02T07:19:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/61 "2003-04-02T14:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > “I am Sir Oracle, > and when I ope my lips, let no dog bark.” - Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice, Act 1, Scene 1. Cripes, **Collunsbury** , get over yourself. You have opinions on the Middle East. You consider them well-informed and valid. I often agree with you. But the last I checked, no one died and left you God. It is possible, in other words, to disagree with you, even on a matter relating to the Middle East, and not be a drooling, uninformed idiot. And this condescending snarkiness that anyone who refuses to kowtow to you as if you held the inside scoop from God Almighty is necessarily a knave and a fool is not justified. You aren’t God. You aren’t even Jesus Christ. Come to think of it, you aren’t even Muhammed or the Mah’di. You’re posting your opinion on a messageboard, not issuing fatwas to the unwashed. Either get used to not being automatically the Final Word, or shut the fuck up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/62 "2003-04-02T14:59:58Z")
I think a minority of people in the United States have bothered to educate themselves about the arab world, myself included. I also think that Americans are a fairly insular people and don’t see the point of trying to understand what doesn’t affect them directly. Aren’t there reports showing that compared to other countries, our students don’t know diddly about geography- let alone the cultures of those countires. Others often take this for arrogance or stupidity. I think it may be apathy, this disconnect with the rest of the world. So **Scylla** I don’t think that **Collounsbury’s** jibe about the novelty of American’s informing themselves is _that_ gross a generalization. I don’t have any cites that compare U.S. education to other countries, but I have a feeling we’re not on top. Speaking of educating ourselves, has anyone read Queen Noor’s book? A good place to start? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/63 "2003-04-02T15:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > Quite the contrary Izzy my man, I am not equally dismissive of all who do not share my viewpoint. > > Let us take Bernard Lewis, I actually disagree with Lewis on numerous points, above all in regards to his present focused analyses. However, I respect Lewis as he is clealry well learned and even when disagreeing with him, I always feel he arrived at his analysis fairly. > > I frequently recommend Lewis here, althogh the attentive reader will have noted the caveats I have thrown in, indicating in fact I do not fully agree with him on substantive issues. To the contrary, you frequently take care to note that you do **not** recommend Lewis’ works on current issues. And IIRC you generally couch that in terms of critique of his analysis rather than his conclusions (certainly, I don’t remember him being used as a source of challenge to your Supreme Wisdom), although as noted, with you these are essentially the same, and it is not surprising that you use them interchangeably. > [@](#): > > However, Pipes I am contemptous of for some of the same reasons I am contemptous of Brutus. He is an ideologue how lets his ideology drive his analysis (we are all of course framed by our understanding of the world, so I will allow there are degrees here). Further Pipes frequently aggressivley and dishonestly attacks the MENA academic community for ideological reasons. Whatever. So IOW, you vehemently disagree with his opinions, but that is unconnected with your contempt - it just happens coincidently that you have found him to be an ideologue. OK. Strange, isn’t it, that there are two main areas to which you lay claim to expertise on these boards, and on both of these, it just turns out that all whose positions are opposed to your own are ignorant, ideologues, lack critical thinking/reading ability etc. etc. etc. On both of these topics you’ve felt compelled to open Pit threads to address that puzzling question of how it is that people have simply just failed to see how incredibly right you are despite your patiently pointing this out to them. But it’s not you. No, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/64 "2003-04-02T15:32:15Z")
Can December start a thread? December could consistently mark the point between absurdly oversimplifying and making things needlessly complex. Without such guidelines, I’m afraid, people will continue to spend all their time at the far end of the spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/65 "2003-04-02T15:43:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Zenster: Who’s to say that Brutus didn’t lift the name from a Popeye cartoon? I’m leaning towards that theory instead of one that would imply some actual education of the person sporting the moniker here. \*\* I think it’s because Brutus’s location is Act 4, Scene III. I would asume it’s from a play about Caesar or something. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/66 "2003-04-02T15:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Klaatu \* > \*\*Pardon, the above was directed at **Collounsbury** \*\* Notice he’s posting in the Pit, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/67 "2003-04-02T15:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > It is possible, in other words, to disagree with you, even on a matter relating to the Middle East, and not be a drooling, uninformed idiot. And this condescending snarkiness that anyone who refuses to kowtow to you as if you held the inside scoop from God Almighty is necessarily a knave and a fool is not justified. Don’t you think, **Shodan** , that it must be tiresome for **Collounsbury** to have to deal with being contradicted by grossly uninformed people who are merely airing their prejudices? Sure, it’s possible to disagree with him, but it is very difficult to do so with as much knowledge of MENA language, history, politics, and oersonalities as **Collounsbury** possesses. Do you speak, read, and write Arabic? **Collounsbury** does. Do you work with the economic and political decisionmakers of the MENA region? **Collounsbury** does. Are you well-versed in the diplomatic and political analyses of the region? **Collounsbury** is. Do you live and work in the MENA region? **Collounsbury** does. Face it: \*\*Collounsbury \*\*, prickly personality and all, is far and away the most learned authority on MENA issues here, surpassing even **Tamerlane** and **Istara** (no offense, y’all.) If you are going to prove him wrong in a debate, you had best bring your A game and have some damned good cites at your fingertips. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/68 "2003-04-02T16:07:18Z")
I happen to like Bernard Lewis, though I confess I have read more of his stuff on medieval Islam than on modern. The fact that Edward Said excoriates him is, in my opinion, also a plus. So in the interests of educating myself, what are your ( **Collounsbury’s** and anyone else’s) big objections to his commentaries on the modern Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/69 "2003-04-02T16:20:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > So in the interests of educating myself, what are your (Collounsbury’s and anyone else’s) big objections to his commentaries on the modern Middle East? \*\* I’m fine with his commentaries, they have been far more informative than the shrill polemics that have saturated GD lately. I just wish there were more like him so we could get different viewpoints instead of the same absolute “right, wrong and naive” handed down from on high each time. (Sorry C) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/70 "2003-04-02T16:24:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Don’t you think, **Shodan** , that it must be tiresome for **Collounsbury** to have to deal with being contradicted by grossly uninformed people who are merely airing their prejudices? \*\* I am sure it must be. I am also sure that not everyone who disagrees with him are “grossly uninformed” or “merely airing their prejudices”. And I, for one, am not willing to assume that simply holding a different point of view is proof conclusive that another poster is an idiot. **Collounsbury** may well be an expert. But arguments based on “I think so, and I am an expert!” are no stronger than any other argument from authority. And when he goes on to post to the effect of “And by the way, you’re an ignorant fuckwad for daring to question me” leads me to conclude that perhaps his expertise is not as deep as he thinks. In my experience, the genuinely knowledgeable expert is aware that ambiguities can exist in any subject area. If he cares to insert his no-doubt well-informed opinion, of course he would be welcome. But I will reserve for myself the right to decide whether or not that settles things. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/71 "2003-04-02T16:29:23Z")
Point taken, **Shodan** , and I agree that merely saying, “Iam an authority, shut up” is no answer to an argument, but see what he has to put up with. In this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=167245&pagenumber=2), one can find examples of the incredibly ignorant attitudes spouted by people who know dick about the issues: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by foolsguinea \* > Why, when “Islam” is at war with us, should we be surprised that those of us who think Mohammed was a liar refuse to sit still for his deceived followers? > > I occasionally say “Mohammedan” instead of Islam, because I believe in God, & it sticks in my craw to call that religion (a religion that _kills women for flirting_; a religion that would call “tolerance” the policy that it is permissible, but not required, to leave people alive unless they pray to idols; a religion with dogmatic devotion to the savage customs of ancient Bedouins) by a name that is supposed to mean “submission [to the will of the true God]”. If this “Muslim” clergyman is not of that stripe, if he’s actually a Sufi or something, then perhaps I’m being unfair. But if you get up and call yourself a loyal follower of woman-haters & genocidists, expect me to dislike you. or this gem: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > Ain’t diversity wonderful? And stupid. And dangerous. And an affront to all free-thinkers of this earth who seek objective truth. > > You’all who haven’t, must really read the better translations of the Koran (although you’ll find that in it is written that Christians and Jews aren’t permitted to read the Holy Writings that are found within). > > And rightly so, to the unbeliever, the semantics found within the Koran reveal an religion of dogmatic, politically incorrect dictates that are warlike and sorely lacking in the tempering effects of “forgiving love” that permeates the inspired teachings of Jesus Christ. (Sorry, one has to be true to his attempts to understand reality.) (And sorry, that I found it necessary to write that last sentence.) \*\* [/QUOTE] Posts that make assertions about the Qu’ran and Islam that are free of corroborating cites and full of inflammatory rhetoric. I am certainly no friend to religion, but I sure as hell intend to criticize Islam for what it is and not for what I imagine it to be, although knowing the difference can be tricky. What do the Islamophobes make of [this?:](http://www.harbus.org/news/403853.html) > [@](#): > > In the final analysis, it is crucial to acknowledge the nature of Islam as deeply personal in its practice. Each person is held accountable for her/his own beliefs and actions to God. Faith lies in the heart and is translated through one’s actions. There is no compulsion in religion and there can be no coercion into believing by force: > > [2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things Really, there’s no excuse for people to continue to parade their ignorance of other cultures and religions as some badge of patriotism. Knowledge is never wasted, and even if you detest Islam and all its works, you ought at least hate it for what it says, not for what you _think_ it says. Anyone who wants to know what the Qu’ran actually says can look it up [here](http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/naeindex.htm). In the name of God, the all-Merciful, the all-Compassionate. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/72 "2003-04-02T16:33:29Z")
Zenster: Can you explain why you feel a comment like “I give a flipping fuck about the Koran” is (partial?/ almost?) reason for banning? I don’t give a fuck about the Koran, either. Truth be told, here are some other things I dont give a fuck about: • The Bible • The Talmud • Tao te Ching • The Book of Satan • whatever book the Wiccans consider to be important • Jewel’s latest book of poetry. What part of that is being a jerk? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/73 "2003-04-02T16:51:57Z")
I don’t think we disagree, **gobear**. But a couple of other gems pulled from the same thread to which you linked: > [@](#): > > Another scary thought: of the Americans who support the current war in Iraq, how many of them think as **foolsguinea** does? > > (Yes, I know Iraq != al Qaeda, but you can bet they don’t…) And: > [@](#): > > But listen to Dubya (or any recent President, really) always blessing this and blessing that and god blessing America at every. single. photo-op. It’s no wonder the religious right thinks god is part of the democratic process! And, of course: > [@](#): > > If “true” Christian believers, like Jerry Falwell and his buddy the Pope, had their way, the government would all be Christian and there’d be NO freedom of religion, just like under the Inquisition. It isn’t just the Middle East or Islam that is the subject of posts that are not carefully thought thru. Crap comes into this messageboard from all sides. And you and I would agree, I think, that simply saying, “I know these people, and it just isn’t like that” does almost no good at all. And saying, “You obviously lack the capability for rational thought, and no one has any worthwhile thoughts to express but me!” does active harm. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/74 "2003-04-02T16:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > It isn’t just the Middle East or Islam that is the subject of posts that are not carefully thought thru. Crap comes into this messageboard from all sides. > > And you and I would agree, I think, that simply saying, “I know these people, and it just isn’t like that” does almost no good at all. And saying, “You obviously lack the capability for rational thought, and no one has any worthwhile thoughts to express but me!” does active harm. 100 percent agreed. [sub]“Jerry Falwell and his buddy the Pope”? BWAHAHAHAHA![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/75 "2003-04-02T17:04:22Z")
I was wondering how long it would be before **Collounsbury** posted a Pit thread; a whole week! Amazing! (I just wanted to stick my head in here and put in another request for a MENA recommended reading list, although I still haven’t finished the last 2 books I bought a few months ago, one of which was recommended jointly by **Tamerlane** and \*\*Collounsbury. \*\* Maybe we could start a campaign to make it a sticky in Café Society, once it’s completed.) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/76 "2003-04-02T17:10:08Z")
But you **aren’t** , really. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_s\_Company](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@Misery\_s\_Company](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_s_Company)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/77 "2003-04-02T17:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **cum-dumpster (new term)** Thank you! I love that. As for the point of all of this… I love the boards because there is a large cross section of intelligent people with varying knowledge. I get to read things, and _decide for myself_ who has things to say that can broaden my horizons, and who can’t. I don’t have to attack anyone that is clearly a nitwit, I just don’t read them anymore. And the discussions can raise really interesting things that I can then research and form my own opinions on. I love Collunsbury’s input on the Middle East. I think he has proven that he has a perspective that is valuable in the search for understanding. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/78 "2003-04-02T17:56:39Z")
Meh. I’ve seen “cum-dumpster” used at least as early as 2001, in a web comic no less. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/79 "2003-04-02T18:02:01Z")
If we are keeping track, I heard a roommate of mine use it as an insult back in 1995 or 1996. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_s\_Company](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@Misery\_s\_Company](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_s_Company)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921/80 "2003-04-02T18:06:13Z")
I guess I have been living a sheltered life. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-nothing-about-arab-culture-but-i-feel-free-to-rant-on-about-it/165921.md?page=5)