# I Know Something You Don't Know! \[Melody of kids' teasing songs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416 "2013-05-26T17:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416/21 "2013-05-27T23:47:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > F-D isn’t just similar to G-E, it’s the exact same thing, unless sports fans all have perfect pitch. My point, which you didn’t seem to pick up, is that the chant was sung on the exact same pitch pretty much everywhere. The shape of the melody would, of course, be the same no matter what note it started on. The “song” is known by everyone, and it’s sung the same way. But what’s intriguing is that it’s sung on just about the same pitch everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416/22 "2013-05-28T03:07:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why this is not on-line at The Stright Dope home page, but The Master addressed this in More of the Straight Dope, 1988. > > A quiz on page 362 (most chapters in the book end with quizzes): > = = = = > 45. “Ring around the rosie/A pocket full of posies/Ashes, ashes/All fall down!” Authorities believe this seemingly innocuous bit of doggerel actually commemorates what grim event? > a. the Great Fire of London > b. the Black Death > c. the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre > d. nothing special > = = = = > > The answer, provided on pages 478 and 479: > > = = = = > 45. D. Permit me to quote from _The Annotated Mother Goose_: > "As recently as November 1961, Mr. James Leasor was writiung in his book _The Plague and the Fire_ that this rhyme ‘had its origin in [The Great Plague]. Rosy [roses] refers to the rosy rash of plague, . . . the posies were herbs and spices carried to sweeten the air; sneezing . . . was a common symptom of those close to death.’ And ‘We’ve all tumbled down’ was in a way exactly what happened. > “This is an interesting theory, but ‘If you consult _The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes_’ (as Charles Poore noted in his _New York Times_ review of _The Plague and the Fire_ ‘you will find, in place of corroboration, the somewhat frosty notation that: “The invariable sneezing and falling down in modern versions has given would-be origin finders the opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the Great Plague.”’ Actually–surprising in a rhyme that has become the accompaniment to one of our most popular nursery games–[‘Ring-around-the-rosy’] first appeared in print as late as 1881.” > By means of this triple-barreled quotation we learn that three out of four experts agree: the correct answer is D, the rhyme signifies nothing in particular. Some yo-yo, incidentally, had the nerve to call up and tell me the preceding _supported_ the Black Death theory. > = = = = > > So, the poem is rather recent, (in the context of a plague that occurred over 650 years ago), and scholarly references to nursery rhymes deny any connection between the poem and the disease. How is the date when this rhyme first appeared _in print_ evidence that it is not, in fact, much older? Clearly its transmission has been, and still is, through the oral tradition, amongst children. Were many people writing down kids’ rhymes before the late 19th century? I doubt it. There may be no way of _proving_ it is older, but there is no evidence that is not. (And there is the evidence of tradition, not to mention of its actual content, that it is.) Also, how have you got “three out of four experts” agreeing here? Everyone else mentioned is simply relying upon the authority of _The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes_. That is _one_ source, quoted uncritically by others. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416/23 "2013-05-28T03:31:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why this is not on-line at The Stright Dope home page, but The Master addressed this in More of the Straight Dope, 1988. > > A quiz on page 362 (most chapters in the book end with quizzes): > = = = = > 45. “Ring around the rosie/A pocket full of posies/Ashes, ashes/All fall down!” Authorities believe this seemingly innocuous bit of doggerel actually commemorates what grim event? > a. the Great Fire of London > b. the Black Death > c. the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre > d. nothing special > = = = = > > The answer, provided on pages 478 and 479: > > = = = = > 45. D. Permit me to quote from _The Annotated Mother Goose_: > "As recently as November 1961, Mr. James Leasor was writiung in his book _The Plague and the Fire_ that this rhyme ‘had its origin in [The Great Plague]. Rosy [roses] refers to the rosy rash of plague, . . . the posies were herbs and spices carried to sweeten the air; sneezing . . . was a common symptom of those close to death.’ And ‘We’ve all tumbled down’ was in a way exactly what happened. > “This is an interesting theory, but ‘If you consult _The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes_’ (as Charles Poore noted in his _New York Times_ review of _The Plague and the Fire_ ‘you will find, in place of corroboration, the somewhat frosty notation that: “The invariable sneezing and falling down in modern versions has given would-be origin finders the opportunity to say that the rhyme dates back to the Great Plague.”’ Actually–surprising in a rhyme that has become the accompaniment to one of our most popular nursery games–[‘Ring-around-the-rosy’] first appeared in print as late as 1881.” > By means of this triple-barreled quotation we learn that three out of four experts agree: the correct answer is D, the rhyme signifies nothing in particular. Some yo-yo, incidentally, had the nerve to call up and tell me the preceding _supported_ the Black Death theory. > = = = = > > So, the poem is rather recent, (in the context of a plague that occurred over 650 years ago), and scholarly references to nursery rhymes deny any connection between the poem and the disease. > [@Kenm](#): > > That song-plague connection is a myth, [**according to Snopes**](http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.asp). Thank you for fighting my ignorance. > [@njtt](#): > > How is the date when this rhyme first appeared _in print_ evidence that it is not, in fact, much older? Clearly its transmission has been, and still is, through the oral tradition, amongst children. Were many people writing down kids’ rhymes before the late 19th century? I doubt it. There may be no way of _proving_ it is older, but there is no evidence that is not. (And there is the evidence of tradition, not to mention of its actual content, that it is.) > > Also, how have you got “three out of four experts” agreeing here? Everyone else mentioned is simply relying upon the authority of _The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes_. That is _one_ source, quoted uncritically by others. Well, that _is_ food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416/24 "2013-05-28T04:37:02Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > How is the date when this rhyme first appeared _in print_ evidence that it is not, in fact, much older? Clearly its transmission has been, and still is, through the oral tradition, amongst children. Were many people writing down kids’ rhymes before the late 19th century? I doubt it. There may be no way of _proving_ it is older, but there is no evidence that is not. Read the Snopes entry. The same patterned rhyming with the same opening line was published multiple times in a five year period, but never before that. Given that background, why is the “ashes, ashes” version considered the “correct” one and where is the evidence that it refers to the plague? As Snopes further notes, the plague occurred before Chaucer wrote anything, (actually between the time he was four and seven). This means that for the “plague” version to be the “real” one, the kids would have looked into the future and chosen nineteenth century words with nineteenth century pronunciations (to make the rhyme and meter work) in the middle of the fourteenth century. Have you seen Chaucer? His English was very different. As to people writing down children’s rhymes, why do you doubt that it happened? _Old King Cole_ was written down (in at least one version) in 1708. The big surge in publishing children’s rhymes began with _Mother Goose_ in 1765, although several books preceded that. Many children’s rhymes were recorded much earlier than 1881. Now, could there have been a children’s rhyme with the same meter 530 years earlier? Sure. But to have that same rhyme refer to the plague in fourteenth century English, changing just enough to update the language without changing the meaning (and carrying forward that meaning for 530 years without anyone happening to take note of it?), not plausible, at all. And then there is the point that the first reference to the plague shows up 80 years after one specific version is printed. If you want to go fight with Cecil, have at it, but that rhyme was not contemporaneous with the plague. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-something-you-dont-know-melody-of-kids-teasing-songs/659416.md?page=1)