# I know the JFK assassination conspiracy theories have been beaten to death but... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016 "2003-11-13T13:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/141 "2003-11-25T05:04:42Z")
Learn to live with us skeptics. In 364 AD, the Roman Emperor Julian was killed on his way back from an invasion of Persia. He was attempting to roll back the contemporary entrenched power structure (Christianity). He also had threatened to break the Praetorian Guard into a thousand pieces and had refused the nominally allied Arsacids the latest in ballistae technology (OK, I made that part up). The official cause of death is the Lone Persian Archer. But his armor that fateful morning was not available, some of his servants were undoubtredly zealous Christians, some his generals wanted to be Emperor … Read Gore Vidal’s “Julian”. 10 more years is nothing, this happened 1600 years ago and there is no telling what really happened, or at least there are interesting stories to tell. I find myself grudgingly admiring you anti-conspiracists. You are somehow strongly motivated but I cannot understand why. The Presidencies, Prime Ministership, news anchorships, and other assorted rewards were handed out to those who popularized the Lone Gunman Theory long ago. I do not think there are any more rewards to be handed out. God knows that I hope they are no longer killing people who disagree. But enough until next Nov 22. What about UFO’s, Bigfoot, did Shakespeare write the plays? ---
**Author:** ![Silvio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Silvio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvio)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/142 "2003-11-25T07:28:23Z")
Is the guilt of the Lone Persian Archer backed by a mountain of scientific, forensic and reliable eyewitness evidence, like the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald is? If the answer is yes, I’d say you should have gotten over the death of Julian about sixteen hundred years ago. There are certainly assasination conspiracies throughout history. That does not mean that all assasinations are conspiracies, or that there is not such a thing as a lone nut. The “anti-conspiracists” are strongly motivated by the principle that evidence and logic make a more compelling case than speculation and fantasy. Sorry, the whole premise of “an ancient Roman emperor was killed in a conspiracy, so goeth JFK” doesn’t exactly pass critical muster. Just a few random points, and I’m sure I’m repeating what I’ve already said in another forum… The question of why Oswald didn’t take the frontal shot as JFK comes towards him on Houstan is a standard conspiracist catchphrase. It was mentioned here, but I’m suprised that no-one mentioned the two most obvious reasons: (1) his view would have been obscured by the windshield, the Secret Service man in the front passenger seat, and Connelly (a rarely mentioned problem with all frontal shots) and (2) Oswald would have been eyeball to eyeball with the security men, who would have been in much better position to see a shooter directly ahead than one firing behind and at an angle. It is likely that Oswald would have been seen before he made the first shot. It is certain that he would have spotted after the first shot. If Oswald, who was in one of the most secluded and hidden positions that any sniper in Dealey Plaza could hope to be in was seen by several witnesses, how could snipers firing from far more open locations have not been noticed? The idea of someone firing from the Knoll, a wide open location in a crowded street in broad daylight with dozens of people close by, without a single even vaguely credible witness seeing him and mentioning it at the time, is totally ridiculous. The Dal-Tex, Texas County Records Building and jail were all very crowded office buildings. Hard to believe someone inside of them wouldn’t have heard a gun fired from inside of the building, as did the people in the Depository under Oswald did. Anyone have a theory of how anybody besides Oswald could have gotten to the Sniper’s Nest, fired three shots and escaped? Stone’s theory of outside workmen being involved is a fabrication, since all of the repairs were being done by Depository employees, not outsiders. Oswald did the deed and got downstairs in just about the minimum time allowed. If he had immediately tried to exit, he would have been intercepted by the policeman on the stairs. There are absolutely no accounts of any strangers in the building except for one man who came in to use the john and left. So, any conspiracy theorists out there want to come up with a story? Oh, by the way, what happened to those curtain rods Oswald was bringing up with him? The Z film very clearly shows a head shot from behind and nowhere else. There is a big, gaping crater in the front of his head that clearly opens outside, which is just about the most obvious exit wound in the history of gunshots. The back of his head is clearly intact on both the Z and Nix films, except his hair is mussed up. There is a huge spray of blood and brains to the front of the president. There is no spray of debris to the back. There were a few small fragments that went directly up into the air from the rear shot and rained back down on the officers cycling behind him, and evidently a piece of brain came dislodged when his head was thrown violently back, but nothing remotely close to the spray to the front from the rear shot. All of the evidence from the Z film (and everything else) points to a rear shot and ONLY a rear shot. Everyone wants to focus on the headsnap as Exhibit A for a conspiracy. Forensic and ballistic scientists were never impressed by it, because bullet wounds do not normally possess the kinetic energy to make someone’s head fly back like a rocket. Getting shot isn’t like being hit with a hammer, it is like being stabbed with a very fast needle. The headsnap clearly does not occur until immediately after the spray of debris to the front, just like it is CAUSED by the spray. In other words, the jet spray theory. Why would any conspirators want to plant a “pristine” (not really) bullet on a stretcher? At the time, weren’t they assuming that three bullets would be recovered? They couldn’t have known about the missed shot. Why set a situation where four bullets were recovered? Since all of the other fragments matched Oswald’s rifle, they already were able to magically trace everything to Oswald’s gun. So what was the point of doing this? By the way, if the Single Bullet Theory isn’t correct, where was the other shooter, how do you get around the invisiblity/inaudibility problem that I’ve already mentioned, and how was he able to hit Connely without hitting Kennedy first? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/143 "2003-11-25T08:53:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mipsman \* > \*\*Learn to live with us skeptics. \*\* I already have. Doesn’t mean you have any facts or truth on your side. Do tell us when you get to some real points, like minty (and others) have been asking? Or do you prefer to nuzzle in the warmth of ‘knowing’ about vague, vast, and ever so quiet conspiracies that replaced your boogie man from childhood? Conspiracy theories are the opium of the self-impressed. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/144 "2003-11-25T16:25:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mipsman \* > Learn to live with us skeptics. “Accommodating ignorance since 364 AD.” ---
**Author:** ![SteverinoAlaReno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@SteverinoAlaReno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteverinoAlaReno)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/145 "2003-11-25T17:15:32Z")
This is a comment/question for minty, but anyone else who knows the answer is free to chime in: I read somewhere (don’t remember where) that although the eyewitnesses at the scene may have differed in where they thought the shots came from, individually they said that the shots all came from the same place. In case I’m not phrasing that correctly, what I mean to say is that while Witness A may have said he heard the shots come from the Grassy Knoll and Witness B said that he heard the shots come from the TSBD, no witness said he heard shots coming from two different locations. The discrepancy in witness accounts of where the shots came from could be explained by acoustics. But I don’t think it’s possible that people would hear all shots coming from the same place if there were more than one shooter. Can anyone verify this? ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/146 "2003-11-25T19:24:34Z")
I recall reading this in Posner’s _Case Closed_. The succinct version is: while a number of people thought the shots came from the TSBD, and a number of people thought the shots came from knoll with grass on it, \*just one-to-two percent of the witnesses said it sounded like shots came from \*both _directions_. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/147 "2003-11-25T20:39:05Z")
What the witnesses heard that day is actually a pretty interesting subject. I don’t have Posner in front of me, but IIRC, the witnesses chose the TSB as the source of the shots by about 2:1 over the grassy knoll (something like 55% TSB to 25% GK, with a number of other sources also identified). A substantial majority also reported exactly 3 shots, with the rest about equally split on 2 or 4 (or more) shots. And **Steverino** ’s suggestion about the acoustics of Dealey Plaze is very appropriate. It’s a big open square, surrounded by tall buildings, and it certainly does echo in there. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/148 "2003-11-25T21:56:12Z")
I just came across this thread and have read through all the posts. I haven’t thought much about any of this in 10 years so would like to ask a question of those who have fresher memories. Wasn’t there a requirement that the SAME bullet went through Kennedy’s neck and then struck Connally? AND, didn’t Connally always deny that the bullet that struck Kennedy hit him? I remember him being quite adamant about this point. So, what’s the chronology on the bullets? Did one miss – why are they trying to make one bullet hit two people? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/149 "2003-11-25T22:31:01Z")
They are not trying to “make” anything. One bullet _did_ hit two people. Governor Connally was mistaken. See [here](http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm) for a thorough discussion of the single bullet. As for the chronology, the Warren Commission concluded that the first shot hit Kennedy and Connally, the second missed, and the third hit Kennedy in the head. They were almost certainly mistaken in this chronology. In all likelihood, the first shot missed (probably because it was deflected by a tree branch), the second shot hit Kennedy and Connally, and the third was the head shot. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/150 "2003-11-25T23:21:04Z")
minty green – I’ll read the link you posted when I have more time, but the rest of your answer does explain why they felt that K & C had to have been struck by one bullet – because they had (presumably strong) evidence that one bullet missed. Otherwise they could have said the first bullet hit Kennedy, the second Connally and the third, Kennedy again. That’s what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/151 "2003-11-25T23:37:55Z")
Okay, read the post – it does a good job of convincing that a single bullet COULD have done the damage to both men. It doesn’t though explain (or do much to explain) why it was felt necessary to insist that both men were struck by the same bullet. I’ve never talked to anyone struck by a high-power bullet so can’t express an opinion on whether it is possible to not know you’ve been shot for several seconds, but that is really weird, if so. PS: I know a thing or two about fully-jacketed bullets so was never skeptical of the claim that a bullet that went through two bodies could emerge so unscathed. ---
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/152 "2003-11-25T23:39:55Z")
According to recent Nixon tapes released: Referring to the report by the Warren Commission, “it was the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated,” Nixon said. He did not elaborate why he questioned the report. from: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1848157.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1848157.stm) Now why would Nixon say such a thing? Maybe he knew something from the tons of classified material that has not yet been released. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/153 "2003-11-25T23:47:58Z")
Easy: > [@](#): > > The bullet that hit President Kennedy in the back and exited through his throat most likely could not have missed both the automobile and its occupants. Since it did not hit the automobile, Frazier testified that it probably struck Governor Connally. The relative positions of President Kennedy and Governor Connally at the time when the President was struck in the neck confirm that the same bullet probably passed through both men. Pictures taken of the President’s limousine on November 22, 1963, showed that the Governor sat immediately in front of the President. Even though the precise distance cannot be ascertained, it is apparent that President Kennedy was somewhat to the Governor’s right. The President sat on the extreme right, as noted in the films and by eyewitnesses, while the right edge of the jump seat in which the Governor sat is 6 inches from the right door. (See Commission Exhibit No. 697 p. 104.) The President wore a back brace which tended to make him sit up straight, and the Governor also sat erect since the jump seat gave him little leg room. > > Based on his observations during the reenactment and the position of Governor Connally shown in the Zapruder film after the car emerged from behind the sign, Frazier testified that Governor Connally was in a position during the span from frame 207 to frame 225 to receive a bullet which would have caused the wounds he actually suffered. Governor Connally viewed the film and testified that he was hit between frames 231 and 234. According to Frazier, between frames 235 and 240 the Governor turned sharply to his right, so that by frame 240 he was too far to the right to have received his injuries at that time. At some point between frames 235 and 240, therefore, is the last occasion when Governor Connally could have received his injuries, since in the frames following 240 he remained turned too far to his right. If Governor Connally was hit by a separate shot between frames 235 and 240 which followed the shot which hit the President’s neck, it would follow that: (1) the assassin’s first shot, assuming a minimum firing time of 2.3 seconds (or 42 frames), was fired between frames 193 and 198 when his view was obscured by the oak tree; (2) President Kennedy continued waving to the crowd after he was hit and did not begin to react for about 1 1/2 seconds; and (3) the first shot, although hitting no bones in the President’s body, was deflected after its exit from the President’s neck in such a way that it failed to hit either the automobile or any of the other occupants. [http://www.archives.gov/research\_room/jfk/warren\_commission/warren\_commission\_report\_chapter3.html#first](http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter3.html#first) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/154 "2003-11-25T23:49:08Z")
[http://www.archives.gov/research\_room/jfk/warren\_commission/warren\_commission\_report\_chapter3.html#first](http://www.archives.gov/research_room/jfk/warren_commission/warren_commission_report_chapter3.html#first) ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/155 "2003-11-26T02:47:48Z")
minty green – thanks, interesting read at that last link. 🙂 Although it is informative that Kennedy continued to wave for 1 1/2 seconds after he was shot, I think Connally was right about hearing a shot before he was shot. Here’s what I think happened: 1. Oswald’s first shot missed. It probably was deflected by a branch of the oak tree that partially obscured his view at that point. Missing the first shot makes the most sense to me also because of the nervousness factor. 2. Connally heard the shot and turned to look over his shoulder and the second short (about 3 seconds after the first) hit Kennedy in the neck and Connally in the chest 3. Oswald then took about 5 or 6 seconds for the last shot. This shot was more difficult as the president was farther away, plus he really wanted this one to count as it would be his last. This shot struck Kennedy in the head. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/156 "2003-11-26T02:56:11Z")
Speaking as someone who was once shot by a high powered bullet… cycling story, Vermont, out of hunting season… I think someone was poaching, personally, my shoulder was numb, for a good long few seconds, after a bit of an odd tug. Didn’t think anything of it till I fell over and realized I was really in a lot of pain after all. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/157 "2003-11-26T03:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TWOTfan \* > Although it is informative that Kennedy continued to wave for 1 1/2 seconds after he was shot, He did not, nor did the link I provided say that he did. The report actually _ruled out_ Gov. Connally being hit by a separate bullet because that would have required Kennedy to continue waving after he had already been shot through the neck. Your speculative timeline, however, is roughly correct. The evidence does indeed indicate that Oswald took a second or two longer to aim his second shot than the third. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/158 "2003-11-26T03:47:53Z")
minty green - the link had this: “President Kennedy continued waving to the crowd after he was hit and did not begin to react for about 1 1/2 seconds”. So, I took that to mean that he didn’t notice he was shot for 1 1/2 seconds – perhaps not a fair assumption. I think my scenario is the right one though – the first shot was a miss and that was what Connally was reacting to. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/159 "2003-11-26T05:32:47Z")
Read for context, amigo: > [@](#): > > If Governor Connally was hit by a separate shot between frames 235 and 240 which followed the shot which hit the President’s neck, it would follow that: (1) the assassin’s first shot, assuming a minimum firing time of 2.3 seconds (or 42 frames), was fired between frames 193 and 198 when his view was obscured by the oak tree; (2) President Kennedy continued waving to the crowd after he was hit and did not begin to react for about 1 1/2 seconds; and (3) the first shot, although hitting no bones in the President’s body, was deflected after its exit from the President’s neck in such a way that it failed to hit either the automobile or any of the other occupants. ---
**Author:** ![TWOTfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TWOTfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWOTfan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016/160 "2003-11-26T13:12:35Z")
Hey, you’re right, I completely missed that “IF” and “it would mean”. So, Kennedy didn’t (presumably) continue to wave for 1 1/2 seconds after he was shot in the neck – and I remove that from my memory banks as evidence that you can continue on for a while after being shot without even realizing it. SO, that makes it even more probable that Connally was hit by the second shot. Since I not only accept, but am pretty convinced, that the same bullet that hit Kennedy in the neck went on to also hit Connally, I believe now, more strongly than ever, that the first shot was a miss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-know-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-theories-have-been-beaten-to-death-but/213016.md?page=9)