# I like the new TSA pat downs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788 "2010-11-24T16:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/61 "2010-11-24T21:34:16Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Word. Freaking word. Thank you. I was probably a little over the top but I am fed up with what the American people are willing to accept. It’s frightening actually. How many of my rights, and yours, will they give up for a little illusory safety? I wonder how many people will die on the highways when they decide not to fly because of these measures? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/62 "2010-11-24T21:48:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Alright, as long as you’re willing to accept the risks for your convenience, then I have no problem with you. I hope for your sake they make a special airline for people like you where there are no security checks. I won’t be flying on it, but I won’t be opposed to people that do. Why the fuck should they? Take the security theater out of the airport and let shit-scared weasels like you charter a private fucking flight. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/63 "2010-11-24T21:49:39Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > How many terrorists have the security screenings uncovered, again? This oft-repeated question is a red herring. Okay, just for the sake of argument, let’s say none. (Even though weapons are routinely seized at security checkpoints. We’ll assume they all were completely innocent folks who just forgot they were packing.) No terrorists were uncovered by the TSA checking all passengers for weapons. Therefore we must not need security screenings. Think this logic through. Do you _really_ believe this? Honestly? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/64 "2010-11-24T21:49:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because people can’t tell I won’t be blowing up a plane by looking at me, or taking me on my word… Basically yes. A trained person could. Customs officers do it every day at the borders. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/65 "2010-11-24T22:09:15Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > I too am comforted by the idea that a strange man in a blue shirt looking at or touching my balls makes the rest of you safer. My balls are that important. Mine too. I always warn the ladies that they could go off at any time, but they still act all surprised. Everyone is eventually going to end up flying nude and in shackles. Lets just skip whatever high tech, high-cost bullshit Chertoff The High Talker has invested in this week and start buying shackles in bulk already. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/66 "2010-11-24T22:17:41Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > How many terrorists have the security screenings uncovered, again? Like **Wheelz** said, if the answer is none, are you willing to have no security? Let me put it another way, if you exercise and eat right and don’t get any illnesses, does that mean the exercise was pointless and you would be healthy if you hadn’t done it? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > This is your most disingenuous argument yet. Are you seriously equating a physical disability or an emotional trauma with bigotry and racism? It’s not my argument, it belongs to **gonzomax** who equated being pat down with the trauma felt by a rape victim or an OCD’s aversion to touch > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The amount of training that TSA provides its “agents” is roughly comparable to that offered by retail stores for their employees. Then the problem is not the procedures, it’s the training of those doing it. If better trained people performed the searches, or better training was done, then you would be in favor of them? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Even at that, the amount of damage that they could have performed would have been limited to injury to a few dozen passengers had the simple precaution of securing the flight deck been done, as has been recommended for years previous. Then your only security improvement would be securing the doors? Let the shoe and underwear bombers of the world try their hardest over and over again? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Part of the basic problem with the current security procedures and methods is that they are focused on looking for objects–bombs, knives, guns, whatever–rather than looking for patterns and behaviors of potential terrorists. By the nature of these methods, including scanners, screeners end up with a massive number of false positives, to the point that security lines are often slowed or stopped so that TSA can pat down and tear apart the carry-on luggage of some seventy-year-old grandmother or a preschooler. This type of blind, pointless security theater is worse than asinine; it diverts attention to actual threats. TSA methods are ineffectual pantomime of security, useful only as a government jobs program for people who can’t get hired to perform skilled tasks. Supposing that’s true, what do we do with the ones who act normal? Just hope they don’t do anything bad? Your screening process isn’t something that’s foolproof > [@Bosstone](#): > > Why the fuck should they? Take the security theater out of the airport and let shit-scared weasels like you charter a private fucking flight. Because you’re the one who’s advocating a change to our current policies. Therefore, you can stand on the sidelines and hope for the no security airlines, the rest of us, the majority of Americans who either don’t mind or don’t care enough about pat downs, will get to enjoy our flights with a small delay and greater security > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Basically yes. A trained person could. Customs officers do it every day at the borders. Then have better training ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/67 "2010-11-24T22:31:14Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because you’re the one who’s advocating a change to our current policies. Therefore, you can stand on the sidelines and hope for the no security airlines, the rest of us, the majority of Americans who either don’t mind or don’t care enough about pat downs, will get to enjoy our flights with a small delay and greater security Oh bull shit. The new changes are what I’m arguing against, the backscatter and new patdowns. _Those_ are the changes. Before, the TSA security procedures were ineffectual but non-invasive. They have become invasive. They need to stop. I don’t want no security. I want security that is as minimal as it is possible to be while still being effective. This ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/68 "2010-11-24T22:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=YogSosoth;13180074=] Really now, you’re trying to ascribe your own selfishness to everyone else. [/Quote] Selfishness? If you want to discuss selfishness, let’s talk about the selfishness of someone, who, because they don’t understand risk, insists that hundreds of millions of travellers each year must be treated like criminals to potentially weed out one person that may or may not exist. Your fear of flying is not shared by me. Anyway, I haven’t at any point said I refuse to go through with this latest police-state bullshit. Indeed, I’ll be flying Sunday and will no doubt take my being herded around like the good sheep that I am, and once again, after dozens upon dozens of previous checks in which I have repeatedly demonstrated I am not a terrorist, yet again be treated as criminal for flying on business. I’ll be fucked, however, if I have to like it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/69 "2010-11-24T22:37:52Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > No terrorists were uncovered by the TSA checking all passengers for weapons. Therefore we must not need security screenings. Think this logic through. Do you _really_ believe this? Honestly? I believe that a government agency with a multi-billion dollar budget, entrusted in ensuring the security of air travel and given nearly illimitable authority to enact whatever measures they see fit should have to demonstrate some measure of efficacy against objective metrics. Instead, all we have seen from TSA is fraud, waste, and abuse on every level to an extent even egregious by federal agency standards. TSA is considered a joke among law enforcement agencies for the lack of training, standards, and accomplishments in providing any measure of security to the traveling public. And yet, for some people handwaving woo-woo about the big scary terrorists who are waiting outside the security gate for any sign of a gap in security is enough to squash any hint of critical thought or criticism. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > It’s not my argument, it belongs to **gonzomax** who equated being pat down with the trauma felt by a rape victim or an OCD’s aversion to touch Jesus Christ, if you’re going to make an idiotic, dishonest argument, at least take ownership of it. You equated a reluctance with wanting one’s genitalia to be inspected and handled by an ill-trained security guard to racial bigotry. If you regard this as an honest comparison and this is a true indication of your intellectual capacity for critical thought, there is no point continuing a discussion. It is not only deceitful but offensive and repugnant to make such a comparison. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/70 "2010-11-24T22:47:26Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Everyone is saying that flying is a choice. Fine, if you’re afraid of a bomb on a plane then make that choice and don’t fucking fly! Don’t force your fears on the rest of us. Hear, hear! If we’re going to say stupid things like “you don’t have to fly,” we may as well direct them at the folks who are so afraid of terrorism (despite the fact that they’re more likely to be killed by _bees_, for god’s sake) that they’re not comfortable flying unless their peers have been essentially strip-searched. But it is a disingenuous misdirection to say that “flying is not a right.” The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights [affirms the liberty of movement](http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm#art12). Domestically, [49 USC § 40101](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49/usc_sec_49_00040101----000-.html) requires that “the public right of freedom of transit through the navigable airspace” be considered in carrying out safety policy. And to those who still insist on saying “if you don’t like the security measures, don’t fly”: are you okay with a policy that actually results in _more_ American travel deaths [by pushing people out of airports and onto highways, which are far less safe?](http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/130243-analyst-new-tsa-procedures-will-kill-more-americans-on-the-highway) The new TSA procedures are _worse_ than ineffective: not only do they have no effect at all on the safety of air travel, they reduce safety overall by creating a pressure to drive instead of fly. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/71 "2010-11-24T22:57:03Z")
> [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](#): > > I have to halfway throw in with the OP. I don’t like the new TSA scanners/patdowns/whatever, but I also think that the response to them has been extremely fucking irritating. > > These kinds of encroachments on our civil liberties and such have been creeping and crawling in since 9/11. There’s a certain subset of the population–of which I am a part–that has been wailing and gnashing our teeth about them. This hasn’t really gone over very well, in that most people didn’t seem to care. Of those who did care, a large number of them were on the other side. Especially immediately post-9/11. Let me tell you–it wasn’t fun. > > So now, nearly ten years later, people are just now getting incensed about this stuff. Good! Great! Except the way they’re getting incensed is by ranting on the internet, making hyperbolic and immature statements about freaking out the guards, and otherwise acting like a bunch of high school students asked to wear an ID badge instead of like a bunch of mature, concerned citizens who actually want to change things. Yes. > [@](#): > > And then, there’s this sneaking suspicion in the back of my head that the only reason people are so upset is because it personally inconveniences _them_. _Yes_. That is what cracks me up about all this the most. Prior to now, the discomfort about post 9/11 lunacy eroding our freedoms was all coming from limp-wristed, America-hating liberals. Now the entire nation is uniformly losing its collective shit, agreeing to get up in arms about this. This. Getting their junk frisked at the airport. And you are right: it is only because there is a direct impact on them, and right now. Look, I don’t think for one second that some lady in blue gloves squeezing my tits at the airport is keeping anyone safe from anything. It’s supposed to make it look like we’re gettin’ serious about terrorizers (I guess), but accomplishes precisely fuckall, aside from wasting everybody’s time. But that’s not why everyone is upset, though. > [@](#): > > It’s not some kind of stance about how paranoia shouldn’t override civil liberties; it’s fear about been seen naked, or of being otherwise inconvenienced at the airport. It feels, in other words, as though the outrage is driven by either prudishness or self-importance, and not by, say, common sense or rationality. Yes again. You, sir or ma’am, are spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/72 "2010-11-24T23:02:52Z")
No system is perfect, and something will get through eventually. Gun, knife, bomb, whatever. When (not if) this happens, what then? If it was snuck in rectally, will it be time for everyone to bend over? If it’s snuck in vaginally will every woman get a shot in the stirrups? Will they have a privacy screen for that? At some point you have to hit the limit. What’s yours? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/73 "2010-11-24T23:05:38Z")
I’m cool with intrusions until they affect me personally, and only if it is in my immediate future. None of this long-term crap. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/74 "2010-11-24T23:30:23Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > No, you don’t have to fly. Really, there’s nothing difficult about this concept. If flying is honestly your only method of reaching your destination, then your choice is to not go. So…my option is to quit my job, and enter this go-go economy and try to find another? Despite what you may have gathered from this board, some of us are not Taco Bell employees, living in their parents basements, or working as admin assistants. Some of us are professionals with advanced degrees who must travel for work, and if we opt out, we lose our job. Given the nature of my career (inspecting and analyzing power plant operations all over the world), opting out of flying also means a career change as well as a job change. That’s not a difficult concept. I really wish you would reconsider what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/75 "2010-11-24T23:46:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > So…my option is to quit my job, and enter this go-go economy and try to find another? Freedom to choose, baby! Used to be that you had to worry about your boss grabbing your ass (unless you want to try to find a new job with a bad reference, dollface!), not it’s a rentacop. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/76 "2010-11-24T23:47:55Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Er, no, I’m not acting like that. If the airlines disappeared, people would find a way to deal with it, but an individual’s decision to fly or not is on that individual’s shoulders, and for most individuals losing one’s job is not an acceptable alternative. And no, someone choosing to risk invasive procedures than lose their job doesn’t mean the invasive procedures are okay. Disagreed, then. It’s a tough choice to make for someone who disagrees with the scanners, but that’s all it is - a choice. > [@](#): > > The part you quoted is from the sheriff’s department, not the TSA. The TSA WILL hold you for refusing security procedures, but the sheriff’s deputies may or may not get involved. I’ve not yet seen any report of the TSA detaining anyone without involving airport police. The TSA will not detain anyone; they will only make recommendation to the police that a person be detained. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/77 "2010-11-24T23:49:22Z")
It just dawned on me. It’s true. America is putting the future in the hands of the TSA. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/78 "2010-11-24T23:50:05Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > So…my option is to quit my job, and enter this go-go economy and try to find another? > > Despite what you may have gathered from this board, some of us are not Taco Bell employees, living in their parents basements, or working as admin assistants. Some of us are professionals with advanced degrees who must travel for work, and if we opt out, we lose our job. Given the nature of my career (inspecting and analyzing power plant operations all over the world), opting out of flying also means a career change as well as a job change. That’s not a difficult concept. > > I really wish you would reconsider what you are saying. I never said it was a difficult concept, but yes, that’s your option. Just because you find neither option palatable doesn’t mean that it’s not your decision to make. Like other difficult life decisions, you must weigh your disdain for the scanning methodology vs. your desire to keep your current job. Life doesn’t always give you the easy ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/79 "2010-11-24T23:52:36Z")
Fuck that shit. When presented with shitty option A and shitty option B, there’s nothing that says we can’t look for good option C. “Quit your career” is a viable choice. What a steaming pile of dogshit that is. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/80 "2010-11-24T23:55:57Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I never said it was a difficult concept, but yes, that’s your option. Just because you find neither option palatable doesn’t mean that it’s not your decision to make. Like other difficult life decisions, you must weigh your disdain for the scanning methodology vs. your desire to keep your current job. Life doesn’t always give you the easy ones. Dude, just quit with this line of reasoning. It’s ridiculous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=5)