# I like the new TSA pat downs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788 "2010-11-24T16:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/81 "2010-11-25T00:07:19Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I never said it was a difficult concept, but yes, that’s your option. Just because you find neither option palatable doesn’t mean that it’s not your decision to make. Like other difficult life decisions, you must weigh your disdain for the scanning methodology vs. your desire to keep your current job. Life doesn’t always give you the easy ones. I’ll bet I can think of several other dilemmas which _you_ might not think were fair. Drunk driving kills far more people in the US every week than are typically killed by airline terrorists. Let’s put mandatory BAC and THC blood testing machines on every car, paid for by you, and if you don’t want to submit to a breath and blood test every time you start your car, well, no one said you have to drive. Bricker can correct me if I’m wrong, but IIRC the USSC has found no more “right to drive” than there exists a “right to fly.” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/82 "2010-11-25T00:17:06Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Look, I don’t think for one second that some lady in blue gloves squeezing my tits at the airport is keeping anyone safe from anything. Perhaps not, but I think we should discuss it in a lot more detail, just to make sure. Is she blonde? ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/83 "2010-11-25T00:24:19Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Fuck that shit. When presented with shitty option A and shitty option B, there’s nothing that says we can’t look for good option C. > > “Quit your career” is a viable choice. What a steaming pile of dogshit that is. “Go through the scanner” is clearly the more viable choice for someone who thinks “quit your career” isn’t a viable choice. Look for option C all you want – the fact is that there is zero indication these screening methods are going anywhere. [QUOTE=MeanOldLady] Dude, just quit with this line of reasoning. It’s ridiculous. [/QUOTE] Again, just because you don’t like either option doesn’t mean that the choice doesn’t exist. It may simply be unrealistic for you to forego flying and maintain your current quality of life. If that’s the case, believe it or not, you’ve made a choice. [QUOTE=Una Persson] I’ll bet I can think of several other dilemmas which _you_ might not think were fair. [/QUOTE] Personally, I find your scenario to be more “unfair” simply because of its logistical ineffectiveness. Were this actually a fool-proof method to actually prevent drunk drivers from driving, I probably wouldn’t voice too much opposition to it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/84 "2010-11-25T00:34:33Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Personally, I find your scenario to be more “unfair” simply because of its logistical ineffectiveness. Were this actually a fool-proof method to actually prevent drunk drivers from driving, I probably wouldn’t voice too much opposition to it. Why must it be fool-proof, _mon ami_? Surely the TSA pat-downs and scanners aren’t held to that same standard. And while not foolproof, the installation of breathalysers on cars has been done via court order for some time. What I’m saying is, couldn’t this just be a case of whose ox is being groped? 😉 I’m not in a position where I can quit my job and try to find another. Telling folks like myself to “just not fly” is not only not productive, it’s almost mocking. Believe me, I’ve cut my travel down to the bare minimum possible, and it has hurt my business and my career, honestly. Any more, and I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/85 "2010-11-25T00:51:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Perhaps not, but I think we should discuss it in a lot more detail, just to make sure. Is she blonde? Sure, why not? Nice cans, too. > [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Again, just because you don’t like either option doesn’t mean that the choice doesn’t exist. I don’t think anyone is saying that the choice does not _exist_. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/86 "2010-11-25T00:53:57Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Personally, I find your scenario to be more “unfair” simply because of its logistical ineffectiveness. Were this actually a fool-proof method to actually prevent drunk drivers from driving, I probably wouldn’t voice too much opposition to it. Considering the relative numbers of deaths due to drunk drivers compared to airborne terrorists and the relative effectiveness of a breathalyzer ignition lock to aggressive pat-downs, I would have to say you just proved you have oatmeal for brains. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/87 "2010-11-25T00:54:05Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Why must it be fool-proof, _mon ami_? Surely the TSA pat-downs and scanners aren’t held to that same standard. Because that’s my level of comfort with the trade off. I find driving to be much more a necessity than flying, though. Where your pin falls on the map may differ. > [@](#): > > What I’m saying is, couldn’t this just be a case of whose ox is being groped? 😉 I’m not in a position where I can quit my job and try to find another. Telling folks like myself to “just not fly” is not only not productive, it’s almost mocking. Believe me, I’ve cut my travel down to the bare minimum possible, and it has hurt my business and my career, honestly. Any more, and I’m out. I didn’t say you shouldn’t fly – I said you should weigh the importance of flying for your job vs. your disdain for the machines, and act accordingly. Your disdain has lost out to the importance of flying for your job. That doesn’t mean that the choice itself didn’t exist. Our primary disconnect here is that I don’t consider the scanning techniques to be invasive enough to be impugning my rights. You and some others do. That’s gravy. I wouldn’t be angry if your beliefs won out – frankly, I don’t care either way whether I walk through a metal detector or an AIT. If only TSA had a ride photo option, though. I’d love to have a MMWD scan of myself to go along with one of those personal DNA profile prints. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/88 "2010-11-25T01:27:57Z")
Sure, just go through the scanner. Unless you have a colostomy bag or something similarly innocent but necessary hidden under your clothes. Then you HAVE to get the pat down. And the hands patting you down are not trained and probably not gentle. Then you wind up with urine all over your clothes and no easy way to get it out. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/89 "2010-11-25T01:33:15Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Sure, just go through the scanner. > > Unless you have a colostomy bag or something similarly innocent but necessary hidden under your clothes. > > Then you HAVE to get the pat down. And the hands patting you down are not trained and probably not gentle. Then you wind up with urine all over your clothes and no easy way to get it out. Urine or worse. A colostomy bag does _not_ contain urine. > **[Colostomy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colostomy)** > > A colostomy is an opening (stoma) in the large intestine (colon), or the surgical procedure that creates one. The opening is formed by drawing the healthy end of the colon through an incision in the anterior abdominal wall and suturing it into place. This opening, often in conjunction with an attached ostomy system, provides an alternative channel for feces to leave the body. Thus if the natural anus is unavailable for that function (for example, in cases where it has been removed as part of trea... ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/90 "2010-11-25T01:37:22Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Tell that to the cancer patient who ended up flying soaked in his own urine because a clueless TSA agent fucked around with his urostomy bag. > [StockExaminer - AI-Powered Stock Chatbot](http://www.examiner.com/american-politics-in-vancouver/man-s-urostomy-bag-damaged-during-tsa-pat-down-forced-to-fly-with-urine-on-him) > > Not everyone is whole and healthy. The sick, disabled, and elderly are often the ones getting the most attention and ending up being publicly humiliated because of prosthetics and medical devices. Many of them already have an uncomfortable and humiliating existence and don’t need people with no medical training asking humiliating questions in public and handling their medical equipment in ways that could result in accidents or damage to their health. Jesus – my uncle has a colostomy bag. I shudder to think what would happen to him if he had to fly. ☹ I’m wondering of **YogSosoth** was the asshat who wrote into the [_Post Gazette_](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10328/1105696-110.stm). (Scroll down to “Stop complaining and do your part in this war effort”) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/91 "2010-11-25T01:49:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Jesus – my uncle has a colostomy bag. I shudder to think what would happen to him if he had to fly. ☹ > > I’m wondering of **YogSosoth** was the asshat who wrote into the [_Post Gazette_](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10328/1105696-110.stm). (Scroll down to “Stop complaining and do your part in this war effort”) Does your uncle have to use the restroom a lot because of it? [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40343938/ns/travel-news](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40343938/ns/travel-news) > [@](#): > > Flier hauled off plane over too many bathroom breaks > > A passenger on a flight from Fort Lauderdale to Denver was pulled off a plane Tuesday after other passengers said he was taking too many potty breaks, reports [9News.com](http://9News.com). Like I said, we are persecuting and humiliating the most vulnerable of our citizens. The elderly with artificial joints. Victims of cancer and other diseases who require various bags and tubes or prosthetic breasts. War heroes with prosthetic limbs. How can anyone find it acceptable that we are specifically singling out these people? How can anyone accept that untrained TSA personnel are pawing at these people’s bodies and medical equipment and asking them humiliating questions? I’m embarrassed at the face we are showing the world. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/92 "2010-11-25T02:15:57Z")
I wonder if there’s any truth to this? > **[TSA pat-downs could spread sexually-transmitted disease and contribute to...](https://www.naturalnews.com/030495_TSA_infectious_disease.html)** > > TSA pat-downs could spread sexually-transmitted disease and contribute to pandemics > [@](#): > > There’s a startling fact about the TSA pat-downs that most of us have not realized: TSA agents often do not change their latex gloves between pat-downs! With these pat-down reaching into your pants, feeling your genitals, and sweeping bare armpits and buttocks, those latex gloves being worn by the TSA agents are obviously teeming with germs. > … > This means, of course, that the TSA is now engaged in extremely risky behavior that could spread sexually-transmitted disease, cold viruses, skin fungi (such as ringworm), and even contribute to a pandemic outbreak. I am definitely skeptical of something call “Natural News” and I think the idea of a pandemic is over the top but I do wonder how often they change those gloves. It does seem like unchanged gloves could certainly transmit some nasty things. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/93 "2010-11-25T03:12:02Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I didn’t say you shouldn’t fly – I said you should weigh the importance of flying for your job vs. your disdain for the machines, and act accordingly. Your disdain has lost out to the importance of flying for your job. Not 100% true, I did mention that I have cut down on air travel, which has hurt my job. FWIW I’m not worried about the scanners, neither from a radiation nor a privacy perspective. WRT privacy, due to government work I’m “in the system” in more ways than most people will ever be anyhow. WRT radiation, via the research I did for **Cecil** I’m convinced that my brief and infrequent exposure is nothing to worry about. Nonetheless, I fully respect people who are concerned about either the privacy loss or radiation from scanners, and support finding another way to screen. But the invasive pat-downs are my concern. I don’t like strangers putting hands on me for any reason. I do not know the root cause; I suspect that it goes back to the abuse, physical attacks, and sexual assault I’ve endured in my life. While I in no way believe that a TSA employee is trying to do any of the aforementioned…we are not always rational, logical animals, and I draw the line at people touching me so thoroughly and personally. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/94 "2010-11-25T03:21:07Z")
What happens with someone who’s allergic to latex, but has to have a pat down? At this point, why not just go the whole hog and start strip-searches and full body cavity searches? (And it honestly would not surprise me at this point – I never would have guessed it would go this far) Perhaps we should have someone wear a “stadium buddy” and then release it all over the TSA agent. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/95 "2010-11-25T03:25:59Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I never said it was a difficult concept, but yes, that’s your option. Just because you find neither option palatable doesn’t mean that it’s not your decision to make. Like other difficult life decisions, you must weigh your disdain for the scanning methodology vs. your desire to keep your current job. Life doesn’t always give you the easy ones. Okay, if you want to make this a cost/benefit analysis, let us look at the cost/benefit breakdown of the security methods employed by TSA. Just purely in term of economic cost (to the tune of $7B per year, the 2009 budget of TSA) how much economic damage due to terrorism and other security threats has TSA deterred? Are we getting our money’s worth for the efforts employed? How many credible terroristic threats are out there, and how effective are the current security methods in preventing further attacks? Are we doing more damage–economically, ethically, to liberty–by employing extreme security methods such as intrusive searches versus acceptance of the blue moon threat of radical extremists engaging in suicide attacks? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/96 "2010-11-25T03:26:05Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Part of the basic problem with the current security procedures and methods is that they are focused on looking for objects–bombs, knives, guns, whatever–rather than looking for patterns and behaviors of potential terrorists. By the nature of these methods, including scanners, screeners end up with a massive number of false positives, to the point that security lines are often slowed or stopped so that TSA can pat down and tear apart the carry-on luggage of some seventy-year-old grandmother or a preschooler. This type of blind, pointless security theater is worse than asinine; it diverts attention to actual threats. TSA methods are ineffectual pantomime of security, useful only as a government jobs program for people who can’t get hired to perform skilled tasks. > > Stranger Paraphrasing something you said in another thread, this looks like Cargo Cult Airport Security. Just go through the apparent motions of security and the gods of air travel will keep you safe. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/97 "2010-11-25T03:29:56Z")
I think it all boils down to the old standby, “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/98 "2010-11-25T03:32:40Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Whether or not metal detectors were manned or working is entirely irrelevant. The items they brought on board were not prohibited. Some of them were. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/99 "2010-11-25T03:50:11Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If I am guilty of something then it is not having a creative enough imagination to stop these attacks. What would you do to prevent these things? I was merely countering with not only was it thinkable, a book by one of the times’ most popular authors used it as a plot device seven years earlier. It was not unthinkable. What would I do? I’d accept that you cannot protect everyone and you have to keep a balance between doing something and getting on with our lives. I’d also do more to do something about the much larger, well documented other holes in the security system, rather that concentrating completely on the passengers. Using Lockerbie as an example again, a man was convicted and I gather most of the US thinks he was guilty (although there is doubt in the UK). If those in the US are right, he survived. He wasn’t a passenger. He took down a plane by exploiting other areas of the process, areas that it seems are still open. The TSA measures are an illusion of security designed to placate people like you that seem to find the illusion more important than actual security. So in short, do something about the known, actual massive security holes instead of concentrating on feeling up innocent people’s junk. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/100 "2010-11-25T03:53:38Z")
What’s the point in labeling this a choice, anyways? How does it change that the procedures are unacceptable? Just because you can choose not to walk in a dangerous neighborhood doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for there to be murders committed in it. Or let’s go another route. Let’s say a criminal holds a gun to your head, and tells you to give me him your money. You have a choice to not give him money. You’ll be dead if it happens, but it’s still a choice. Now what value is there in expressing that it’s a choice? Why not be like most rational people and view it as you were forced to do what he says? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=6)