# I like the new TSA pat downs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788 "2010-11-24T16:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/161 "2010-11-27T13:37:41Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > …I don’t live in constant fear. I just don’t find the current procedures to be invasive, or imposing upon my rights. How can you not find them invasive? They do a full body scan and if they see anything out of the ordinary, the stick their hand down your pants and feel. How is that not invasive? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/162 "2010-11-27T14:14:53Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > How can you not find them invasive? They do a full body scan and if they see anything out of the ordinary, the stick their hand down your pants and feel. How is that not invasive? The answer **davidm** , is that is that some people believe the new procedures will stop airborne terrorism. The rest of us know the terrorist will simply switch from the “frontal” attack to a flank maneuver. When that happens, the TSA will knee jerk another response, and we’ll all be back here in the pit attempting to run the government better than those we’ve elected do. Anyway, when you announce your candidacy for any elected office, let us know. I have a strong feeling you’ve got most of our votes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/163 "2010-11-27T14:22:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The answer **davidm** , is that is that some people believe the new procedures will stop airborne terrorism. The rest of us know the terrorist will simply switch from the “frontal” attack to a flank maneuver. When that happens, the TSA will knee jerk another response, and we’ll all be back here in the pit attempting to run the government better than those we’ve elected do. > > Anyway, when you announce your candidacy for any elected office, let us know. I have a strong feeling you’ve got most of our votes. LOL. 😛 Thank you for the compliment although I’m not sure that many here would share your opinion. I think the last thing I’d want to do is run for office. _I_ certainly wouldn’t vote for me. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/164 "2010-11-27T14:32:30Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The answer **davidm** , is that is that some people believe the new procedures will stop airborne terrorism. The rest of us know the terrorist will simply switch from the “frontal” attack to a flank maneuver. When that happens, the TSA will knee jerk another response, and we’ll all be back here in the pit attempting to run the government better than those we’ve elected do. > > Anyway, when you announce your candidacy for any elected office, let us know. I have a strong feeling you’ve got most of our votes. I did not vote for the jackass in charge of homeland security, nor did I vote for the head of the TSA. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/165 "2010-11-27T14:51:02Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] Well most people do find them imposing, and as you say, you’re not afraid of just using a metal detector. So why needlessly upset a bunch of people? [/QUOTE] [Really? Most people do?](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45531.html) It seems 2/3 of those surveyed are fine with the body scanners, though the pat-downs are split about 50/50 this week. It occurs to me that if most people found them to be truly imposing, then either a) “Opt Out Day” would have been a rousing success, or b) our airplanes would’ve been much, much emptier this past week. If I felt like I was giving up my rights or being imposed on personally, I could forego visiting the relatives for Thanksgiving. Or I’d drive. Or take a train. If we’re going to make generalizations about “most people,” I’d probably concede that most people may find the procedures to be tedious or inconvenient, but not a blatant disregard for their rights. If you have the right to voice your opinion and complain about the TSA’s procedures, I have an equal right to voice mine and be just fine with them. > [@davidm](#): > > How can you not find them invasive? They do a full body scan and if they see anything out of the ordinary, the stick their hand down your pants and feel. How is that not invasive? Hyperbole much? I’ve only seen one news story referencing an incident in which the TSO actually stuck their hand down someone’s pants. [QUOTE=Morgenstern] The answer davidm, is that is that some people believe the new procedures will stop airborne terrorism. [/QUOTE] I never commented on the efficacy of these procedures; I merely said that I don’t mind them and don’t find them to be personally invasive. For the record, I don’t believe that these procedures will eliminate airborne terrorism. For that matter, I can’t think of anything that definitively _would_. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/166 "2010-11-27T15:03:10Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > …Hyperbole much? I’ve only seen one news story referencing an incident in which the TSO actually stuck their hand down someone’s pants. > … There are at least three links in this thread to stories about people with medical issues (or normal women’s issues) who ended up being humiliated or worse. Maybe they weren’t _all_ literally cases of hands going down pants but they were all invasive. In any case, even one instance is one too many. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/167 "2010-11-27T15:17:36Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Hyperbole much? I’ve only seen one news story referencing an incident in which the TSO actually stuck their hand down someone’s pants. Care to rethink [that](http://www.prisonplanet.com/tsa-now-putting-hands-down-fliers-pants.html)? - Going through airport security this past weekend, radio host Owen JJ Stone, known as “OhDoctah,” related how he was told that the rules had been changed and was offered a private screening. When he asked what the procedure entailed, the TSA agent responded, “I have to go in your waistband, I have to put my hand down your pants,” after which he did precisely that.\* Seems that wearing baggy clothes is an invitation for extra attention. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/168 "2010-11-27T15:28:30Z")
What makes anyone think the scanner and pat-downs are actually effective? They are only used randomly and inconsistently. Why is it okay to allow passenger A go through a simple metal detector level of scrutiny, but not passenger B? And if passenger B objects to scanner and/or pat-down level of scrutiny, why not just let him/her go through passenger A’s level of scrutiny? I found it interesting that in Miami last week, you were only subjected to scanner and pat-downs if you weren’t in the priority pass line. Did these people just pay more to be left alone? That’s what makes it appear to be strictly theatre. Any old terrorist can buy a priority pass and given how many passengers make it through just metal detector level of screening, it’s not ridiculous to assume they could, too. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/169 "2010-11-27T15:34:16Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > The TSA isn’t a law enforcement agency; it’s disingenuous to compare their tactics to “other law enforcement agencies.” If you disagree that their search methods are widely known to the public at this point, you just haven’t been paying attention. Well, you now officially have your head up your ass. The Transportation Security Administration is, in fact, a law enforcement agency, or rather a collection of agencies including the Federal Air Marshals Service. As as explained in the link provided by the o.p., TSA has specifically stated that they will not reveal the details of how a “pat down” is conducted or the extent of methods employed. And regardless of semantics, this is not improving security or helping defeat “the terrorists” who could easily strike at any number of soft, unprotected targets but instead largely appear to have been on holiday for the last eight years in which, despite vague warnings about “credible threats” have not made a single effective, coordinated attack on US soil. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/170 "2010-11-27T15:54:45Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Hyperbole much? I’ve only seen one news story referencing an incident in which the TSO actually stuck their hand down someone’s pants. Now, really. My good man, you really must not fly at all, or you’re not paying attention to your surroundings. _Every single time_ I’m at the airport I can clearly see TSA people sticking their hands inside of waistbands, up under skirts all the way to what must be the outer labia…no “citation” is needed other than actually being a flying traveler who keeps their eyes open. And if you aren’t a frequent or unaware flyer, then the other option is you must fly out of Mayberry International Airport (MAY) where every TSA “professional” has the friendly demeanor of a young Andy Taylor after a half-glass of Skeeter’s moonshine. Instead of acting like Barney Fife hung over from a 3-day bender. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/171 "2010-11-27T16:33:42Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > How can you not find them invasive? They do a full body scan and if they see anything out of the ordinary, the stick their hand down your pants and feel. How is that not invasive? When I flew out of O’Hare last Monday the full body scan showed “something out of the ordinary” in the vicinity of my left pants pocket. The TSA agent ran his hands along the _outside_ of my pants and then asked me I had in my pocket; I had previously, as instructed, removed the book and package of beef sticks from my other pockets (I was wearing cargo pants) but had forgotten about the small metal pill carrier (which I usually took out and put in my carry on bag while in the security line, but it had moved so quickly that it slipped my mind). I took it out and showed it to him, and even opened it so he could see its contents; I honestly can’t remember whether opening it was his request or my own idea. It was not a full body, pat down. Nothing invasive or even to my mind annoying, except at my own carelessness in leaving it there. The only area where I was patted down was the area where the scanned had shown something suspicious. I suppose if I’d had the pill container tucked into my underwear I’d have gotten my crotch patted down, or maybe even had a hand put down my pants, but that would have been my own damn fault. Yes, there have been embarrassing incidents, but considering the number of people who fly who don’t seem to have problems I think the system works. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/172 "2010-11-27T17:24:16Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > Yes, there have been embarrassing incidents, but considering the number of people who fly who don’t seem to have problems I think the system works. How, exactly, does the system work? I flew through two airports and never got scanned or patted down? Sure, I’m not a terrorist, but who would know that? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/173 "2010-11-27T19:31:21Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > How, exactly, does the system work? I flew through two airports and never got scanned or patted down? Sure, I’m not a terrorist, but who would know that? Brown eyed girls should be profiled as a particularly dangerous grope,er group. Airlines are missing a business opportunity. Since they don’t care about slowing down the lines, they could offer full body, 15 minute massages instead of pat downs. They could make some money while checking out the customers for explosives. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/174 "2010-11-27T19:34:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Brown eyed girls should be profiled as a particularly dangerous grope,er group. > Airlines are missing a business opportunity. Since they don’t care about slowing down the lines, they could offer full body, 15 minute massages instead of pat downs. They could make some money while checking out the customers for explosives. Would there be a happy ending? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/175 "2010-11-27T22:08:22Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > The TSA makes it abundantly clear on their website that you can, at any time, request the TSO to change his/her gloves. Yep, he can pick up the ones he used yesterday. These pat downs are a pretty good way to spread disease. Many are afraid of authority figures and would not ask them to change gloves because it might piss them off. Many would not know such a request is OK. I can see spreading germs among the people being mauled by agents. This should be real good in flu season. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/176 "2010-11-27T22:13:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yep, he can pick up the ones he used yesterday. These pat downs are a pretty good way to spread disease. > Many are afraid of authority figures and would not ask them to change gloves because it might piss them off. Many would not know such a request is OK. I can see spreading germs among the people being mauled by agents. This should be real good in flu season. Forget about flu. What about scabies? ETA: Nobody should have to request a glove change. I don’t have to request a glove change at the doctor’s office. The TSA should be changing gloves automatically. Hell, even the dudes at Subway changes their gloves automatically. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/177 "2010-11-28T01:57:23Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Which begs the question, what happens when a pre-op trans gendered M toF person goes through the line and the female agent feels something more than normal? Will s/he have to produce it for the pecker checker? It depends entirely on the whim of the agent, I believe, and that’s incredibly fricking dangerous. I would fall off my chair if I learned that there were actually binding, enforced regulations of the TSA that required agents to be respectful of trans people’s genders and bodies and the fact that interventions of this kind can be very badly psychologically triggering. Hell, they can’t get it together to do this for non-trans people, let alone trans people. (And trans women are properly referred to as “she,” not “s/he,” unless they prefer non-standard pronouns.) ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/178 "2010-11-28T02:59:19Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > There are at least three links in this thread to stories about people with medical issues (or normal women’s issues) who ended up being humiliated or worse. Maybe they weren’t _all_ literally cases of hands going down pants but they were all invasive. > > In any case, even one instance is one too many. A handful of reported incidents out of several hundred thousand screenings does not scream “SOP” to me. In that case, I find it difficult to blame the system instead of the individual doing the screening. [QUOTE=Stranger on a Train] Well, you now officially have your head up your ass. The Transportation Security Administration is, in fact, a law enforcement agency, or rather a collection of agencies including the Federal Air Marshals Service. As as explained in the link provided by the o.p., TSA has specifically stated that they will not reveal the details of how a “pat down” is conducted or the extent of methods employed. [/QUOTE] The TSOs working the checkpoints are not law enforcement officers; they yield authority to police when they find that a situation requires authority above their own. > [@](#): > > And regardless of semantics, this is not improving security or helping defeat “the terrorists” who could easily strike at any number of soft, unprotected targets but instead largely appear to have been on holiday for the last eight years in which, despite vague warnings about “credible threats” have not made a single effective, coordinated attack on US soil. It’s impossible to say whether the TSA had anything to do with deterring potential attacks or not. [QUOTE=Una Persson] My good man, you really must not fly at all, or you’re not paying attention to your surroundings. Every single time I’m at the airport I can clearly see TSA people sticking their hands inside of waistbands, up under skirts all the way to what must be the outer labia…no “citation” is needed other than actually being a flying traveler who keeps their eyes open. [/QUOTE] Not at all. I fly quite frequently, mostly up and down the east coast, though I do make it out west from time to time. It’s part of my job, and I absolutely pay attention to my surroundings when I do. Certainly there have been specific instances of rights violations, or outright intrusion during pat downs, but those seem to be well publicized outliers from day to day operations. I never said that there were individual TSOs who were unprofessional or who would benefit from additional training, or even some that just outright need to be removed from the job. My point is that, on the whole, I believe most Americans don’t find the current procedures to be overly invasive or ignorant of their rights. No “citation” is needed other than actually being a flying traveler who keeps their eyes, and ears, open. Though if you want some numbers, I posted a recent poll upthread. [QUOTE=LurkMeister] Nothing invasive or even to my mind annoying, except at my own carelessness in leaving it there. The only area where I was patted down was the area where the scanned had shown something suspicious. I suppose if I’d had the pill container tucked into my underwear I’d have gotten my crotch patted down, or maybe even had a hand put down my pants, but that would have been my own damn fault. Yes, there have been embarrassing incidents, but considering the number of people who fly who don’t seem to have problems I think the system works. [/QUOTE] Bingo. Your experience sounds a lot more in line with those I’ve heard from most travelers. Even if the TSA will not publish their actual procedures, I think we can deduce a lot from the multitude of reports published by travelers. The only real concern I have with the system as it stands is with the lack of attention given to the treatment of those with disabilities or medical conditions. I’d have zero problem with the TSA establishing better training for TSOs conducting pat downs of individuals with these needs. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/179 "2010-11-28T04:21:16Z")
Oh, and one other thing on the subject of TSA procedures which, while not directly related to the subject at hand, does illustrate the amount of leeway that TSA people have in performing their duties. The only official ID I have is my NC state ID card; last year I noticed that the photo portion had become somewhat blurred because I had been carrying it in the plastic holder part of my wallet (which is the first time in all the years I’ve been doing so that this had happened) so I moved it to another section. I’ve flown about a dozen times since then, and no one has ever questioned its validity until my trip last Monday, when the TSO checking my boarding pass and ID called someone over to look at it. This other person (I presume he was a supervisor) first asked if I had any other ID, and after I said no he took out an eyepiece and examined the picture closely before allowing me to pass. When I commented, in a non-adversarial tone, that this was the first time it had ever been questioned he responded politely, “That’s why you pay my salary.” I smiled and thanked him for doing his job. I was not told that I needed to get a new ID, but just to be on the safe side I think I’m going to look into doing so. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788/180 "2010-11-28T06:59:00Z")
[http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html](http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html) > [@](#): > > Review of the TSA X-ray backscatter body scanner safety report: hide your kids, hide your wife > > Last spring, a group of scientists at the University of California at San Francisco (UCSF) including John Sedat Ph.D., David Agard Ph.D., Robert Stroud, Ph.D. and Marc Shuman, M.D. sent a letter of concern to the TSA regarding the implementation of their ‘Advanced Imaging Technology’, or body scanners as a routine method of security screening in US airports. Of specific concern is the scanner that uses X-ray back-scattering. In the letter they raise some interesting points, which I’ve quoted below: > > ``` > * "Our overriding concern is the extent to which the safety of this scanning device has been adequately demonstrated. This can only be determined by a meeting of an impartial panel of experts that would include medical physicists and radiation biologists at which all of the available relevant data is reviewed." > * "The X-ray dose from these devices has often been compared in the media to the cosmic ray exposure inherent to airplane travel or that of a chest X-ray. However, this comparison is very misleading: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest X-rays have much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriately understood in terms of the whole body volume dose. In contrast, these new airport scanners are largely depositing their energy into the skin and immediately adjacent tissue, and since this is such a small fraction of body weight/vol, possibly by one to two orders of magnitude, the real dose to the skin is now high." > * "In addition, it appears that real independent safety data do not exist." > * "There is good reason to believe that these scanners will increase the risk of cancer to children and other vulnerable populations. We are unanimous in believing that the potential health consequences need to be rigorously studied before these scanners are adopted." > > ``` More at link… [http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html](http://myhelicaltryst.blogspot.com/2010/11/tsa-x-ray-backscatter-body-scanner.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-like-the-new-tsa-pat-downs/561788.md?page=10)