I like Wal-Mart, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

[Gary_Robson]

@Renob

If you are willing to pay more for better customer service, that’s one thing. That’s an economic decision. But to simply decide that it’s somehow more noble to buy goods and services from small businessmen who are inefficient is a ridiculous notion. By doing that you are actually hurting the local economy by keeping money flowing to businesses that aren’t using it for its maximum value.

First, there’s no nobility involved. I never used the word, never implied it. Stop trying to read between the lines and just listen to what I’m saying:

I enjoy shopping at small stores. I like dealing directly with the owners, who know their product lines inside out. I like the quality of hand-made products. I like the atmosphere of the stores. I like the product selection. Stores like that are a big part of what defines communities like the one I live in.

To live in this community and shop at WalMart would be hypocritical, since WalMart has a corporate strategy centered around destruction of the exact type of downtown I enjoy.

And, by the way, I don’t by into your sweeping generalization that Wal*Mart is always more efficient than smaller businesses.

@Renob

I’m not sure what kind of books on Soviet history they have in Montana, but your views on the efficiency of the Soviet economic system is pretty flawed.

The Soviet economy did, indeed, center around centralization: it was more efficient to centralize (for example) manufacturing of shoes in one place under one hierarchy. When that one place had problems, nobody had shoes.

@Renob

If they are spending $1000 extra for the same pair of boots, then they should be castigated, too. But usually they are paying extra for the quality.

Again, your argument is backward. You want quality? You buy the handmade locally-produced product. The high-fashion designers aren’t about quality, and Wal*Mart DEFINITELY isn’t about quality. It’s about low price at the expense of quality.

@Renob

It is in your self-interest to pay more for their products because it makes you feel good about yourself. It lets you look down on those who shop at Wal Mart. It means you can pat yourself on the back and say you are “giving something to the community.”

No, no, and once again, no. I don’t look down on WalMart shoppers, and I don’t pay more for products to feel good about myself. People that don’t like small stores and small towns with scenic historic shopping districts should absolutely shop at WalMart. I just wish people like that wouldn’t move to small towns with scenic historic shopping districts. Let them go someplace that is already riddled with big-box stores that offer low prices with no quality and poor service. Then they aren’t damaging the place I live.

@levdrakon

You know, it almost sounds like you live in an Amish community or something, where communism does work on small scales. It just doesn’t work on large scales, where most of us live.

Not an Amish community. Just a “community.” There are no religious overtones; no enforced morality. I’ve lived in cities before, and found them sad and lonely places where nobody knows their neighbors and nobody gives a damn about anybody else. I chose not to live there anymore.

[ArizonaTeach]

@NajaNivea

Sure, you wrote a letter and they donated a pittance. For my local community, ongoing support of community programs is a way of life, and a significant percentage of the money I spend in my local businesses gets used to improve the community. I’d be willing to bet the percentage of money spent at your local WalMart that goes back into the community is… quite small.

Percentage of total income, perhaps, but Wal-Mart is very, very involved in local communities. A Neighborhood Market went up at the corner next to our school, and they’ve been very generous with our school, from monetary to food donations.

[NajaNivea]

@ArizonaTeach

Percentage of total income, perhaps, but Wal-Mart is very, very involved in local communities. A Neighborhood Market went up at the corner next to our school, and they’ve been very generous with our school, from monetary to food donations.

That’s great to hear, and the first time I’ve ever heard anything of the kind.

[Renob]

@InvisibleWombat

And, by the way, I don’t by into your sweeping generalization that Wal*Mart is always more efficient than smaller businesses.

That’s true. It may or may not be. If it has lower prices, though, that’s an indication that they are more efficient.

The Soviet economy did, indeed, center around centralization: it was more efficient to centralize (for example) manufacturing of shoes in one place under one hierarchy. When that one place had problems, nobody had shoes.

Your view of efficiency seems to be one that is imposed from above. That isn’t what I’m talking about. By “efficient” I mean using resources and time better than others. When one company does that it is reflected in its lower prices. Businesses that make the same product and charge higher prices indicate that they are using resources less wisely than their lower priced-competitors.

This has nothing to do with some bureaucrats view of “efficiency.” When you have the government allocating resources it is perhaps the most inefficient method of doing things, because you eliminate the vast amount of information that is relayed by prices.

Again, your argument is backward. You want quality? You buy the handmade locally-produced product. The high-fashion designers aren’t about quality, and Wal*Mart DEFINITELY isn’t about quality. It’s about low price at the expense of quality.

I was replying to your example about people who buy high-priced foreign made goods. I wasn’t talking about Wal Mart goods.

And, frankly, there is little indication that hand-made locally-prouced goods are of a higher quality. Again, you’d do well to look into the idea of comparative advantage.

[levdrakon]

@InvisibleWombat

Not an Amish community. Just a “community.” There are no religious overtones; no enforced morality. I’ve lived in cities before, and found them sad and lonely places where nobody knows their neighbors and nobody gives a damn about anybody else. I chose not to live there anymore.

Well, I wasn’t implying anything with religious overtones or enforced morality. It just seems to me you like communism on a small community scale where everyone pitches in and shares their wealth for the common good but OTOH you warn that the path to Wal-Mart leads to communism, like it’s a bad thing.

[Gary_Robson]

@levdrakon

Well, I wasn’t implying anything with religious overtones or enforced morality. It just seems to me you like communism on a small community scale where everyone pitches in and shares their wealth for the common good but OTOH you warn that the path to Wal-Mart leads to communism, like it’s a bad thing.

I don’t know where you got all this communism stuff, but…

(a) I don’t particularly like communism. I like the freedom to be able to earn as much as I want, spend it where I want, and donate it where I want. Wal*Mart takes away that freedom by destroying small local businesses.

(b) I don’t believe that Wal*Mart leads to communism. They are the epitome of free-market capitalism.

[Renob]

@InvisibleWombat

a) I don’t particularly like communism. I like the freedom to be able to earn as much as I want, spend it where I want, and donate it where I want. Wal*Mart takes away that freedom by destroying small local businesses.

So if your neighbors choose to shop at some place different than you, then somehow freedom is destroyed? That makes no sense. If some businessman can’t stay in business because he doesn’t have a large selection of goods or his prices are bad, then how is that the destruction of freedom? That’s simply the consequence of freedom.

[levdrakon]

@InvisibleWombat

I don’t know where you got all this communism stuff, but…

You’re right. You didn’t say communism, you said 1970’s Style Soviet Union [del]Death Rays[/del] Assembly lines. You:

I’m not impoverishing myself by $50 by supporting an inefficient local. I’m keeping a way of life going that I quite enjoy. Sure, the Mexican assembly line is a more efficient way to make boots, but the road to your kind of efficiency is the road to the Soviet Union of the 1970s. It was more efficient to have specific states focused on specific industries, and it led to sameness, supply problems, and the eventual collapse of the economy.

There’s a whole lot of arguable stuff there but my main point is Wal-Mart isn’t a state run monopoly and if the assembly lines which supply Wal-Mart with toilet paper break down that doesn’t mean we’re out of toilet paper. We can always buy the really expensive hand-woven toilet paper from your favorite local store. But with Wal-Mart, we don’t have to.

But it sounds like you want us to buy expensive hand-woven toilet paper from your store in order to “support the community” but all you’re doing is making that guy rich and when he goes out of business, we really are going to be out of toilet paper.

[ArizonaTeach]

@NajaNivea

That’s great to hear, and the first time I’ve ever heard anything of the kind.

From what I’m reading here, it seems like Phoenix area Wal-Marts might be a totally different corporation from other ones in the country. Almost all the Wal-Marts here that I can recall have big signs in the front of the store with donation totals of how much each individual store has given to the local community. It’s shows a bit of a lack of humility, granted…!

[Musicat]

@CalMeacham

It’s not merely that WalMart buys in large lots to get cheap prices. They’ve been acused of demanding changes in the way their suppliers run their own companies, and the prices they charge. It’s been investigated by a number of places, including 60 Minutes. And Wal Mart’s unique position as a huge buyer places it in a special class of buyer that it’s not all easy to brush off by saying “you can sell to someone else”.

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Bringing better prices to consumers is something to be ashamed of?

I’m pretty sure their suppliers are making money. No matter how much they bitch and moan when they comply, the alternative (for the company and the consumer) is worse.

[Ignatz]

Did you hear the one about Susie’s cat’s tail getting caught in a door and cut off about half-way along its length?
Well, Susie gathered up the cat and the hunk of tail and ran out the door saying she was heading for Wal-Mart.

Her Mom said why are you going to Wal-Mart?

So Susie says, “Because they are the world’s largest retailer!”

[BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]

@Ignatz

Did you hear the one about Susie’s cat’s tail getting caught in a door and cut off about half-way along its length?
Well, Susie gathered up the cat and the hunk of tail and ran out the door saying she was heading for Wal-Mart.

Her Mom said why are you going to Wal-Mart?

So Susie says, “Because they are the world’s largest retailer!”

Oh. I thought the punchline was going to be “because they’ll accept returns on ANYthing.”

this cat you sold me was defective, the tail fell off. no, no, it’s not accidental damage!

[Ocean_Annie]

@ArizonaTeach

Percentage of total income, perhaps, but Wal-Mart is very, very involved in local communities. A Neighborhood Market went up at the corner next to our school, and they’ve been very generous with our school, from monetary to food donations.

Wal-Mart’s generosity and benevolence is extraordinary and quite moving, truly exceptional.
Maybe Wal-Mart can slap up a few shanty towns in response to the mortgage crises -Wal-Mart Village emergency housing, where dreams come to die.

[Ocean_Annie]

@ArizonaTeach

Almost all the Wal-Marts here that I can recall have big signs in the front of the store with donation totals of how much each individual store has given to the local community. It’s shows a bit of a lack of humility, granted…!

Hmmm…is it corporate donations or Wal-Mart employee donations? It could be both. Wal-Mart employees tend to be generous.

[MissTskTsk]

Honestly, there aren’t any wal-marts where I live… or rather, none close enough to make it worth my effort to drive to. I’ve been in a Wal-Mart twice in my life. Once I was looking for something camping related and they didn’t have what I was looking for… I was simply looking for a cooler with a hinged lid. Apparently they don’t carry those, or at least not in spring. I forgot what I was looking for the second time I went into one, but I remember pretty clearly they didn’t have it. I’m sure it was typical variety store something.

Two times I’ve been in there, looking for something I needed, both times they didn’t have anything close, or even a suitable substitute. So far, I’m battin’ zero with Wal-Mart.

We do have a Target here, but I never go in there, mostly because it’s on the other side of town and I hate fighting the traffic to get there. So, I shop at a local big box chain here called Fred Meyer. They always seem to have what I need at a decent price, but probably not the cheapest.

[zenith]

I don’t buy a lot of stuff in WalMart. The local one has gotten lazy since they ran KMart out of town.

Although Wally’s is open 24 hours, their shelves are poorly stocked.

On two recent occasions I couldn’t buy wipers and windshield wash, respectively, at 7:15 AM.

I tore a wiper blade trying to wash off the brown crud that the State puts all over the Interstate when the temperatures get below freezing. WalMart didn’t have my blade in stock. As a matter of fact, they had about 1/2 their entire size range out.

Had to delay my after-work nap 45 min. and go to O’Reilly, which had 'em in stock and for the same price.

Another day, hit the washer switch and got no blue stuff.@ approx. 7:20 AM, WalMart didn’t have blue stuff in stock that day.

Delayed work nap 40 minutes, bought blue stuff for same price as WM @ O’Reilly.

They do have ferret food at a reasonable price and it’s always there when I need it-even@ 7-ish in the morning, and their store brand cat litter clumps better than Target’s.

Also, their store brand dandruff shampoo is better than Target’s and their generic pseudoephedrin is MUCH cheaper than Walgreens and diapers for the granddaughter are cheaper ther than anywhere else in town.

A great big store that promises everything but, in my case, delivers only 5 items.

[Gary_Robson]

@Renob

So if your neighbors choose to shop at some place different than you, then somehow freedom is destroyed? That makes no sense. If some businessman can’t stay in business because he doesn’t have a large selection of goods or his prices are bad, then how is that the destruction of freedom? That’s simply the consequence of freedom.

I don’t think this conversation is going anywhere. You’re misinterpreting everything I say (apparently on purpose).

You keep coming back to “Wal*Mart is cheaper on everything” and “the only reason their competitors die is that they’re less efficient and/or more expensive.” THOSE ARE BOTH FALSE.

And my neighbors aren’t destroying freedom by shopping where they wish. Wal*Mart is attempting to destroy my freedom to shop where I wish
by using questionable business tactics to shut down competitors even when those competitors are cheaper.

The bottom line is that WalMart’s corporate strategy centers around destroying places that I like spending time in. Of COURSE I don’t like WalMart.

You are unconcerned about other people: you don’t care if Wal*Mart destroys jobs, livelihoods, businesses, or communities if you can get your batteries for $2.55 instead of the $2.75 that the store down the street charges. Fine.

[Moirai]

My aunt’s store had to close after a Wal Mart moved in. This was in northern California- my aunt had spent years building up a small lingerie shop, with nice things at reasonable prices. It took a lot of convincing for some of those mountain women to wear anything but white granny panties from Sears! But it worked and she had a nice little business going.

But once Wal Mart moved in, there was no way she could compete. She might sell a nice lace teddy for $18 (pretty cheap, actually), but if Wal Mart had them for $6.99… She went out of business within 2 years, IIRC.

You will say, I’m sure, that it was just the risk of doing business- if you can’t give the customer what they want at the price they want, then you go out of business. But that’s not the only thing happening. There is something important about community, knowing your neighbors and local businesspeople, that you just don’t get with big impersonal stores that expect a community to change for them, rather than adjusting itself to a community (Trader Joe’s is quite good at this).

I support local business because I want to, and because I think it’s important. Instead of buying a pair of Ugg boots at a department store, I buy a pair of handmade sheepskin boots from a local guy who makes them himself- you can even watch (just seeing the old machinery is amazing)! The price is about the same, but I would rather give it to my guy. Same with buying my coffee from a family farm in Kona, Hawaii instead of a multi-national company. My money goes directly where it should.

I avoid Wal Mart on general principles and out of a personal vendetta. May not be logical, but it works for me.

[Renob]

@InvisibleWombat

I don’t think this conversation is going anywhere. You’re misinterpreting everything I say (apparently on purpose).

How so? Perhaps you can be clearer.

You keep coming back to “Wal*Mart is cheaper on everything” and “the only reason their competitors die is that they’re less efficient and/or more expensive.” THOSE ARE BOTH FALSE.

Please point to anywhere where I said that “Wal Mart is cheaper on everything.”

The second point, about why people go out of business, is certainly true. It’s true for pretty much every business closing, not just those associated with Wal Mart.

And my neighbors aren’t destroying freedom by shopping where they wish. Wal*Mart is attempting to destroy my freedom to shop where I wish
by using questionable business tactics to shut down competitors even when those competitors are cheaper.

How so? You’ve presented no evidence of that.

You are unconcerned about other people: you don’t care if Wal*Mart destroys jobs, livelihoods, businesses, or communities if you can get your batteries for $2.55 instead of the $2.75 that the store down the street charges. Fine.

Actually, I am concerned about people. I want people to have the freedom to choose a store that will sell them goods and services at the lowest price. That is good for people. Wal Mart gives many people in my local community jobs. It saves money of people who work for other places but shop there.

And the notion that Wal Mart destroys jobs is false. Yes, some people may lose jobs because they cannot compete with Wal Mart. But the money consumers save by shopping at Wal Mart is spent elsewhere, creating jobs. Using money more efficiently creates jobs, not destroys them.

[Gary_Robson]

I already addressed these points, Renob. This isn’t worth it. Neither of us will change our minds.

As a Wal*Mart apologist, you simply won’t believe anything negative about them, no matter how well-documented (I don’t suppose you’ve read the book or watched the video I mentioned?). You’ll never understand what I mean by sense of community, and you’ll never believe that there’s value in shopping at places you like (as opposed to the place that demonstrates the best immediate-gratification 14-cents cheaper on the particular item you want and screw the customer service).

I, on the other hand, will never be convinced that I should shop at a store whose business strategy centers around destroying the types of community that I live in; that supporting your local community is counterproductive; or that “screw the other guy before he screws you” is a pleasant way to spend your life.

Moving on and unsubscribing to the thread…