# “I’m on a highway to hell”
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 13, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225 "2006-03-13T20:37:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/101 "2006-03-17T22:08:27Z")
> [@Tevildo](#):
>
> they (ID’ers) still deny (at least) one of the fundamental principles of evolution, that all existing forms of life arose through natural processes from a common ancestor.
Theistic Evolutionists also deny that. That’s why they are Theistic. If one believes any life arose through natural processes alone, one is not Theistic.
Anyway, yeah- ID can include Theistic Evolution.
My own denomination (Assembly of God) has Young-Earth Creationists, Old-Earth Creationists, Re-Creationists (the billions’o’years prehistoric world was laid waste in the Lucifer rebellion & the ‘six days’ was God’s restoration of order & creation of humanity to the world), maybe even a few quiet T.E.s. No one ever told me I had to believe in a 6000yo Earth to be saved.
Btw- I’m an Old-Earth Creationist who thinks God may have used some macro-Evolution.
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### Author:  [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/102 "2006-03-18T00:35:51Z")
> [@Sean Factotum](#):
>
> [kevin spacey voice]
> You are my new hero.
> [/ksv]
Even Google doesn’t seem to know where that quote’s from, but thanks. I went to Biola, which only gives graduate degrees in psychology and theology, so you get a good number of new seminary students loudly arguing theological nits in the cafeteria, especially toward the beginning of the year. They’re all excited, and at some point they know just enough to be dangerous and impressed with themselves. We used to do the :rolleyes: at them.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/103 "2006-03-18T03:52:24Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> > [@Tevildo](#):
> >
> > they (ID’ers) still deny (at least) one of the fundamental principles of evolution, that all existing forms of life arose through natural processes from a common ancestor.
>
> Theistic Evolutionists also deny that.
Not true. There may be some who do so, but it is hardly the hallmark of Theistic Evolution which only notes that God authored all, but leaves the entire question of “how?” to science.
Theodosius Dobzhansky and Kenneth Miller would both state that all existing life forms (on Earth) arose through natural processes. From the perspective of science, we do not know (and can never know) whether God took an active roll in “encouraging” some gametes to beat out other gametes in the race for reproduction or whether, existing outside time, God simply knew that His creation would develop (at least) the life forms we have discovered. There is nothing in Theistic Evolution that demands the direct intervention by God into the _physical_ world aside from the initial act of creation (whatever _that_ was).
---
### Author:  [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/104 "2006-03-18T05:58:25Z")
> [@Cardinal](#):
>
> That’s actually kind of how I’m thinking about Genesis, but WHERE does the pi thing come from?
>
> Ah, Google has my answer. I had never heard of that teapot tempest. No, pi isn’t three. I think I’m back to something like “it’s right on the things that really matter.” And no, the exact process of creation doesn’t really matter. You’re here either way. Man, the time spent on this Bible geekery could be so much better applied to, well, thousands of things. Go pick up trash in a vacant lot and you’d probably do more for God. Sheeesh.
For those of you following along at home, the relevent passage is I Kings 7:23–26. The passage describes a bath thirty cubits in circumference and ten cubits across. That would seem to require a pi value of 3 (circumference equal pi times diameter), except when you consider that the circumference is measured around the inside wall of the bath, while the diameter is measured from outer lip to outer lip. There’s no contradiction here.
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### Author:  [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/105 "2006-03-18T08:28:52Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> Theistic Evolutionists also deny that. That’s why they are Theistic. If one believes any life arose through natural processes alone, one is not Theistic.
No, one is not theistic - one is an “atheist”, to coin a word - if one does not believe in God, and one is a theist if one does. As **Der Trihs** regularly points out, being an atheist does not commit one to any beliefs other than the non-existence of God; the same is true, _mutatis mutandis_, of theism.
> [@](#):
>
> Anyway, yeah- ID can include Theistic Evolution.
No, the essential point of ID is that it requires _active intervention_ by God in His creation. A theistic evolutionist, such as myself, believes that God is clever and powerful enough to create a world that works properly first time, without having to come back and tinker with it to keep it going.
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### Author:  [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/106 "2006-03-18T13:34:29Z")
Oh, I don’t know. I’m rather amused by the notion of a God who’d sometimes stick His head in and tweak things to make them run a bit better. After all, I’ve tweaked my share of perfectly good code. On the other hand, this does contradict my more deeply held belief that God is not bound by linear time as we know it and exists in all times simultaneously. 😕
Hmmm. I think I’d better not dwell on this and go pick up some trash or something.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/107 "2006-03-18T14:16:41Z")
> [@Cardinal](#):
>
> I think I’m back to something like “it’s right on the things that really matter.”
Might that be “it’s right with me on the things that really matter to me?”
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### Author:  [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/108 "2006-03-18T16:26:15Z")
> [@Siege](#):
>
> Oh, I don’t know. I’m rather amused by the notion of a God who’d sometimes stick His head in and tweak things to make them run a bit better. After all, I’ve tweaked my share of perfectly good code. On the other hand, this does contradict my more deeply held belief that God is not bound by linear time as we know it and exists in all times simultaneously. 😕
>
> Hmmm. I think I’d better not dwell on this and go pick up some trash or something.
Well, if he can exists in all times simultaneuously, maybe he sees our universe from beginning to end all at once, and tweaks things to make them better or smoother or prettier or something. If he sees it all at once, he might have to make changes at any point along the time scale to fit his wants.
And by the way, I just got a picture of God pacing up and down His office in front of His computer, trying to write code that will make that damn protein fold correctly. Quite an amusing image. Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/109 "2006-03-20T16:49:36Z")
> [@Cardinal](#):
>
> Even Google doesn’t seem to know where that quote’s from, but thanks.
I may be misremembering, but I thought it was from _American Beauty_ when Spacey and the weird kid are outside of the party smoking.
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### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/110 "2006-03-20T21:08:01Z")
In a classic example of the good news/bad news scenario, here is my conversation with my pastor:
Good News: I am not going to hell.
My pastor takes great pride in his sermons and when I challenged him on his statement, he denied it adamantly saying that he was referring to only evolutionists who don’t believe in God. I was hoping for more of a “whoops” admission as I think he merely overstated his position during the sermon. However, once confronted, he got a little defensive. He’s human but he refused to admit saying something confirmed by several people I have talked.
Bad News: 6000 year old universe is the _only_ legitimate explanation for all things. Evolutionists are trying to develop a construct that eliminates God. We had a long conversation where I pointed out many findings that confirm scientific theory on origins to which he responded that creation scientists have data to support their, more reasonable, conclusion.
I even pointed out that science can not quantify the supernatural; therefore real scientists can not put forth theories that include miracles. He cited this as science’s attempt to eliminate God _shrug_
I pointed him to scientific journals where no theory for a young universe has been put forth. Creation scientists, I argued, are circumventing the need for data and analysis by publishing directly to the public and avoiding the inevitable shredding of their theories in peer reviewed journals. He cited Behe and others without even acknowledging my point.
I then put forth the supernova 1987a which proved that light had been a constant for at least 150 000 years (I can find the cite again if anyone needs it). He said that it is more likely that God created an “already in progress” universe. I countered that a) science is then truly following a lie and the idea that “nature gives witness” is an empty verse and b) it is no more reasonable than saying that the universe was created 17 seconds ago with the population and history already in place. He didn’t grasp this at all.
In the end, we left it at we both think we’re right but he claims God is on his side. One more Sunday in the series and he can get back to theology. I will have my work cut out for me as this subject will undoubtedly come up at bible studies and such with the added authority of the pastor on the side of the creationists.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/111 "2006-03-21T06:46:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> creation scientists have data to support their, more reasonable, conclusion
Including Hovind, Gish, and others who have had to lie to make their case? Does God need people bearing false witness in order to get His point across?
> [@](#):
>
> Evolutionists are trying to develop a construct that eliminates God.
Despite Dobzhansky, de Chardin, Miller, and numerous other Christians who support(ed) Evolution?
> [@](#):
>
> He cited Behe
Despite the fact that Behe _denies_ a 6,000 year old creation?
I think your pastor is frightened and confused.
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### Author:  [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/112 "2006-03-21T11:02:47Z")
Well done, **Greenback** , you may at least have planted a seed. Have you suggested another meeting in which the pastor brings his “creationist evidence” with him, and _you_ get to question _it_? We could coach you pretty well to debunk the nonsense he’ll bring along, if you’re interested. I’d also be interested in hearing what he’d say if you compared God making false light shows of supernovae which never happened and inserting false iridium layers into sedimentary rocks to Holocaust Denial.
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### Author:  [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/113 "2006-03-21T13:28:22Z")
**Greenback** , I’m really glad that you were able to talk to your pastor over this. I can’t say to myself that I am surprised, and I can’t say that I like your pastor’s stance on this issue (but we knew that already ;)). Everything that he said (as you reported) seems to be about him “keeping you in the fold” (“referring to only evolutionists who don’t believe in God”) but continuing to support his defenseless position.
In fact, the more I think about it, that line (“referring to only evolutionists who don’t believe in God”) is exactly the point that makes the difference. If God will “forgive” you for “believing” in evolution, why does it matter? Why would he need to preach that scientific theory is counter to God’s will? I wonder if, if you pushed him, he would actually come out and say that he does believe that those believing in evolution are “sinning.”
::sigh::
You have your work cut out for you, **Greenback**. Thanks for fighting ignorance on this topic.
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### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/114 "2006-03-21T16:27:31Z")
I’m not sure that I have the stomach to bang my head against the wall some more. The main problem is that my pastor’s position is that the data of origins points to YEC and scientists are actively skewing it towards an older model. Truthfully, I really don’t know where to go from there. We’re talking centuries of conspiracy here.
I dealt with any evidence that he offered during our discussion but he dismissed it and moved on to the next piece. **tomndebb** may be right in saying he is scared. In fact, when I told him that the bible was not a science book he responded saying that “when the bible touches on science, it is authoritative” and followed that up with “the bible is literal and infallible”. I really have no where else to go after that.
So I stand alone. My church teaching things beyond the scope to which I believe the Church was called; creating a dichotomy between science and religion. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be a good thing to write an article about origins and place it in the church newsletter. If anything, it would at least offer another perspective and show that the pastor is not just “preaching to the converted” 😃
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### Author:  [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/115 "2006-03-21T17:54:13Z")
Did you mention to the preacher [evolutionary developmental biology?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo-devo) It shoots down the argument that God had to have created everything because incremental adaptations over millennia couldn’t possibly have produced wildly different complex structures from the same basic structure.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/116 "2006-03-21T18:58:35Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#):
>
> Did you mention to the preacher [evolutionary developmental biology?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo-devo) It shoots down the argument that God had to have created everything because incremental adaptations over millennia couldn’t possibly have produced wildly different complex structures from the same basic structure.
Irrelevant if the world, being 6,000 years old, has not had enough time to support such incremental changes. 😉
**Greenback** , I would not spend much more time frustrating your pastor and yourself in this endeavor. Neither of you are going to budge, so friction is inevitable.
In terms of study groups where you might encounter this, I would suggest:
- collecting a long list of devout Christians who support evolutionary study to demonstrate that this is not an evil secular plot, (this would include any information regarding the 18th and 19th century thinkers who first began to speculate about an old Earth who were clearly fervent believers and not trying to sow seeds of atheism–Citing James Hutton, and not Charles Lyell, for example!);
- (a list of known religious liars and their lies might not be bad to have, although I would not make it the first line of discussion);
- and the following statement by St. Augustine of Hippo from his commentary _de Genesis_, Chapter 19:
> [@](#):
>
> Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
(Of course, if your denomination owes its heritage more to Calvin than Luther, you may still be out of luck. Lutherans tend to honor Augustine while Calvinists often do not.)
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### Author:  [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/117 "2006-03-21T19:15:18Z")
> [@Greenback](#):
>
> In fact, when I told him that the bible was not a science book he responded saying that “when the bible touches on science, it is authoritative” and followed that up with “the bible is literal and infallible”. I really have no where else to go after that.
Does he believe that the Earth is flat (Isaiah 40:22), that the sky is solid (Genesis 1:6) and held up by pillars (Job 26:11) and that the solid rock your church is (hopefully) built on is supported by some more pillars (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6) above an expanse of water (Exodus 20:4, Psalm 136:6)?
No? But that’s what the Bible says. If he’s prepared to compromise on the above facts, why can’t he compromise on the 6000 years? It’s just as inconsistent as reality as the above-mentioned examples of “Biblical science”.
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### Author:  [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/118 "2006-03-21T20:12:58Z")
> [@Cardinal](#):
>
> And no, the exact process of creation doesn’t really matter.
To you and me in our everyday lives? No, not at all. You’re absolutely right. I can’t think of a single specific instance where the belief of several million American’s that the world is 6000 years old has had a discernable impact on _my_ life.
Then again, we need to face three very important facts. The first is that Young Earth Creationism is really, _really_ stupid. And I mean _STUPID_. Not like, _“I hate that new Jack-in-the-Box commercial. It’s so stupid”_, but stupid as in the shameless debasement and abdication of both reason and sanity. Stupid as in not believable due to not only a lack of evidence and, in fact, _believed in despite evidence to the contrary._ And stupid like a fairy tale which would be cute and endearing if believed by a four year old but is frightening and dangerous when believed by an adult.
The second is that these same people use this egregiously stupid belief as the foundation for many other egregiously stupid beliefs, such as the belief that women are innately inferior to men, and the belief that God promised Israel to the Jews.
The third fact is that these people are able, by virtue of the collective power of stupid people in large groups, to influence public policy. Your President, the most powerful man in the world, has to cater to these retards on a daily basis.
And that most certainly _is_ relevant to my every day life.
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### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/119 "2006-03-21T20:25:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> - collecting a long list of devout Christians who support evolutionary study to demonstrate that this is not an evil secular plot, (this would include any information regarding the 18th and 19th century thinkers who first began to speculate about an old Earth who were clearly fervent believers and not trying to sow seeds of atheism–Citing James Hutton, and not Charles Lyell, for example!);
I won’t ask you to provide the list but could you provide a website that I could go to in order to find and research one? I’m not even sure how to google it.
> [@](#):
>
> - (a list of known religious liars and their lies might not be bad to have, although I would not make it the first line of discussion);
If possible, same request as above…
> [@](#):
>
> - and the following statement by St. Augustine of Hippo from his commentary _de Genesis_, Chapter 19:
I was thinking of that quote but I had not committed it to memory. Thanks.
---
### Author:  [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-m-on-a-highway-to-hell/348225/120 "2006-03-21T20:26:27Z")
> [@Tevildo](#):
>
> Does he believe that the Earth is flat (Isaiah 40:22), that the sky is solid (Genesis 1:6) and held up by pillars (Job 26:11) and that the solid rock your church is (hopefully) built on is supported by some more pillars (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6) above an expanse of water (Exodus 20:4, Psalm 136:6)?
>
> No? But that’s what the Bible says. If he’s prepared to compromise on the above facts, why can’t he compromise on the 6000 years? It’s just as inconsistent as reality as the above-mentioned examples of “Biblical science”.
I got him to back off of YEC being pertinent to salvation, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME!
😃
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