# I may be able to explain the Republicans
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 11, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602 "2011-07-11T07:53:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/21 "2011-07-11T18:14:09Z")
I think the Republicans haved backed themselves into a corner, so even if there is just a token revenue increase, they will be seen as caving, and suffer the consequences fron their base.
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### Author:  [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/22 "2011-07-11T18:26:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> I think the Republicans haved backed themselves into a corner, so even if there is just a token revenue increase, they will be seen as caving, and suffer the consequences fron their base.
I wish, man. But they don’t suffer consequences from their base. They give the orders, the base follows. To wit: the implicit conversation between the fascist righty leadership and its base:
“We’re going to create a rebranded Republican subsidiary called the Tea Party. Your first order is to express disgust at ‘both sides’, and act angry toward the bankers that led to the great Economic Collapse of 2008. You will then gravitate toward hatred of the government in general, and then, )since we will have lost the majority and the White House due to our incompetence), anger toward Democrats.”
Win-win. “Anger toward both sides”–gain the attention of the vapid, corporate press, in a time when it was untenable to not be angry at the banks. Let time do its magical memory hole magic, direct toward the same target the rich have always had, i.e., anyone who has the possibility of disturbing status quo.
I’d call it brilliant, as many of us on the left tend to do, but when your backers are the Lannisters it’s much easier and less admirable a feat to accomplish than when you’re fighting from the bottom and tasked with the burden of ‘trying to educate’.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/23 "2011-07-11T18:42:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> That was political speak.
No, it was what the President said. It wasn’t inferred or meant to be read between the lines. He said it plainly and clearly. Maybe it was Greek to you but then that would explain why the Greeks are circling the drain. Socialists are hard of hearing when it comes to budgets.
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> The proof comes in what programs are seriously offered after the debt ceiling is taken care of. The Dems think it would be a disaster for Americans if the ceiling is not raised. I believe most Repubs know it, but are willing to risk it for some political advantage or perhaps some financial advantage.
If you listened to the speech and the followup questions you’d know that 69% of Americans oppose raising the debt ceiling. People see how badly things are overseas and understand that 14 trillion in debt is a big deal.
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> Obamacare is saving us money now. But the best parts will not be in place for a couple years. The health care insurers are desperate to get Obama out and kill Obamacare.It is all about money. Obama has caved to the Repubs many times in order to keep the country on some kind of upward trajectory. this is not new. The Repubs will do everything they can to destroy the economy to get Obama out.
I don’t see any health care savings. In fact, my policy jumped sharply after it passed as did all my friends with personal insurance policies.
And when it fully kicks in it will burden businesses with additional costs that have nothing to do with their operation. I don’t see how this could possible do anything but drag the economy down further and lest you forget the political sound bite, “IT’S THE ECONOMY STUPID”. 9% unemployment and higher insurance costs are hard things to forget.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/24 "2011-07-11T19:09:13Z")
[Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-10/imf-s-lagarde-says-failure-on-u-s-debt-limit-will-be-a-shock-.html) Because you are a believer does not mean people who actually know economics agree. here is the new head of the IMF foretelling disaster if the Tea baggers win.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/25 "2011-07-11T19:27:20Z")
The Democrats have the upper hand in the negotiation. They have the Senate and the Presidency, while the GOP just has the house. Plus they have a sympathetic media which will blame any default on the crazy Republicans. The GOP has a weak hand so they have to play it loudly, plus the Democrats know that they can not keep running structural deficits forever. Both sides are playing to their electorate, the GOP wants to be able to say “We fought as hard as we could” and the Democrat party wants to say"Those crazies made us do it"
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/26 "2011-07-11T19:29:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> Plus they have a sympathetic media which will blame any default on the crazy Republicans.
As long as the Republicans have Fox News, they won’t be vicims of the “media”.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/27 "2011-07-11T19:34:40Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#):
>
> ITR Champion, the usual term for the game theory scenario that you describe in the OP is the Prisoner’s Dilemma, not the Battle of the Sexes.
Now that I’ve looked it over, I see that it’s neither a Prisoner’s Dilemma nor a Battle of the Sexes. I believe that **Strinka** was right in saying that it fits the pattern of Chicken, which I hadn’t heard of before. The differences being:
[ul]
[li]In the Prisoner’s Dilemma there is only one Nash equilibrium solution, which is when both players confess.[/li][li]In the Battle of the Sexes there are two Nash Equilibrium solutions: when both sides pick ‘baseball’ and when both pick ‘ballet’.[/li][li]In Chicken there are two Nash Equilibrium solutions, but they occur when the two sides choose differently rather than when they make the same choice.[/li][/ul]
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### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/28 "2011-07-11T19:42:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> I think the Republicans haved backed themselves into a corner, so even if there is just a token revenue increase, they will be seen as caving, and suffer the consequences fron their base.
Their Tea Party base is too stupid to realize the consequences of a default. However, most of their rich business base probably understands it all too well, and are likely to lose tons of money in the market if the Republicans force a default. I’d hope they would at least step in at the last minute to pressure the more rational ones to pull back from the brink.
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### Author:  [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/29 "2011-07-11T19:42:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> If you listened to the speech and the followup questions you’d know that 69% of Americans oppose raising the debt ceiling.
What poll was cited for that figure? [The AP poll](http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/pdf/AP-GfK%20Poll%20June%202011%20Topline_debt%20ceiling.pdf) from the end of June said that 38% support raising it, 41% oppose, and 18% neither support nor oppose.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/30 "2011-07-11T19:45:31Z")
> [@C3](#):
>
> What poll was cited for that figure? [The AP poll](http://www.ap-gfkpoll.com/pdf/AP-GfK%20Poll%20June%202011%20Topline_debt%20ceiling.pdf) from the end of June said that 38% support raising it, 41% oppose, and 18% neither support nor oppose.
The remaining 3% asked if that was where you hung the debt chandelier.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/31 "2011-07-11T20:30:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#):
>
> It’s hard to negotiate when you’ve convinced your constituency that your opponent is a traitor, socialist who is worse than Hitler. Who wants to be seen compromising with Hitler?
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Stalin was okay with it, early on.
The actual deal with Hitler was not one of Uncle Joe’s proudest moments, but it is an example of an admirable pragmatism.
People talk about how Stalin killed so many more people than Hitler. That’s partly because Stalin was a genius compared to Hitler.
Pragmatism works!
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> The repub vision of America is cold hearted to those not on top. They will gut Medicare, Medicade, Social Security and any other programs that help those not rich.
Nitpick. Medicaid is the program to subsidize health care for the “deserving” poor. Medicade is a sweetened beverage made with fluids pressed from the bodies of health care providers. (Mmm, mmm.)
> [@](#):
>
> The rich will eventually be kings.
Well, possibly patrician aristocrats, technically. Kings have a whole “buck stops here” quality that might be too much responsibility for the gated-community crowd.
[QUOTE=The Horse and His Boy, by C.S. Lewis]
“For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there’s hunger in the land (as must be now and then in bad years) to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land.“
[/QUOTE]
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/32 "2011-07-12T03:40:43Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> It ignores who they work for. The Repubs may well understand the potential damage holding the line will cause, but there must be a future payoff involved.All the Repubs can not believe letting the ceiling stay where it is, will be painless. Can they trust the rich to take care of them in the future? Apparently they believe they can.
This, to a degree.
ITR, I think the mistake you make with this analysis is that ultimately, the success or failure of the gamble will also be determined by an outside party, the voters, which the original premise doesn’t take into account
Even if Republicans get what they want, or lose less, if the voters blame them for any economic catastrophe, they will have lost more than the arbitrary numbers you put in the post
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### Author:  [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/33 "2011-07-12T14:09:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> This, to a degree.
>
> ITR, I think the mistake you make with this analysis is that ultimately, the success or failure of the gamble will also be determined by an outside party, the voters, which the original premise doesn’t take into account
>
> Even if Republicans get what they want, or lose less, if the voters blame them for any economic catastrophe, they will have lost more than the arbitrary numbers you put in the post
Ah, yes. There’s the fly in the buttermilk, those pesky voters. Wouldn’t it just be better if their votes made no difference whatsoever?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/34 "2011-07-12T14:23:40Z")
The GOP that can be explained is not the true GOP.
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### Author:  [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/35 "2011-07-12T15:05:21Z")
> [@humanafterall](#):
>
> Ah, yes. There’s the fly in the buttermilk, those pesky voters. Wouldn’t it just be better if their votes made no difference whatsoever?
Now, there’s an idea!
Let’s set up a system where we pretend to have 2 parties, it’s really just us but we’ll play-act to hate each other.
Every couple of years we hold an election circus and fool the worker ants into thinking that their votes actually are verrrry important.
Ha, they’ll think that what they’re getting (or having taken away, rather) is what they themselves voted for.
Maybe they’ll even hate each others guts too, instead of us.
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### Author:  [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/36 "2011-07-12T15:44:14Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> I’m starting to think Obama’s been bluffing this whole time, hinting at medicare cuts and so on, counting on the Republicans to go on chanting, “No Compromises!” In the end, he can issue some emergency executive order and say, “Clearly, the Republicans aren’t serious about economics or governing.”
> No cites, just an impression I have.
This. Obama is a smart enough politician to know that he can offer ANYTHING as long as he pairs it with a tax increase because he knows he will never have to deliver. He can make himself look like the reasonable one who was willing to compromise because he knows he won’t have to pay up. Republicans have really shot themselves in the foot by forgoing ANY tax increases. If they were to say, “OK, we’ll take it,” to his offers of cuts in SS and Medicaid/Medicare, Obama would backpedal so fast he would look like Fred Flintstone trying to stop his car.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/37 "2011-07-12T17:44:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#):
>
> [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-10/imf-s-lagarde-says-failure-on-u-s-debt-limit-will-be-a-shock-.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-10/imf-s-lagarde-says-failure-on-u-s-debt-limit-will-be-a-shock-.html) Because you are a believer does not mean people who actually know economics agree. here is the new head of the IMF foretelling disaster if the Tea baggers win.
Greece is actually imploding in front of us with a number of countries right behind it. That is what is driving the public sentiment. If we don’t stop raising the debt limit then our credit rating will take a hit. The solution is pretty simple, stop spending more than is taken in. The party that is having difficulty with this is not the GOP.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/38 "2011-07-12T17:55:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Greece is actually imploding in front of us with a number of countries right behind it. That is what is driving the public sentiment. If we don’t stop raising the debt limit then our credit rating will take a hit. The solution is pretty simple, stop spending more than is taken in. The party that is having difficulty with this is not the GOP.
What is so hard to understand here? When your numbers go south, you have two options, decrease spending and increase revenue. Both solutions are viable. The Republicans are like someone who is spending way more than they take in saying, “OK, I’ll stop with buying food and clothing for the kids, but I absolutely WILL NOT get a job!”
So damn irresponsible!
The Dems are willing to make cuts, they are willing to raise revenues, IT’S THE FRICKING GOP THAT’S BEING THE GODDAM IRRESPONSIBLE IDIOTS HERE!
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/39 "2011-07-12T18:25:16Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#):
>
> What is so hard to understand here? When your numbers go south, you have two options, decrease spending and increase revenue. Both solutions are viable. The Republicans are like someone who is spending way more than they take in saying, “OK, I’ll stop with buying food and clothing for the kids, but I absolutely WILL NOT get a job!”
>
> So damn irresponsible!
>
> The Dems are willing to make cuts, they are willing to raise revenues, IT’S THE FRICKING GOP THAT’S BEING THE GODDAM IRRESPONSIBLE IDIOTS HERE!
What is so hard to understand about 9% unemployment and not raising taxes at this time? Every other employer on the planet understands that they don’t have an unlimited source of credit. I have yet to hear the world’s largest employer even discuss cutting payroll.
Attention President Obama, IT’S THE ECONOMY STUPID. It’s your fucking job to deal with it. If you can’t handle it then step down.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-may-be-able-to-explain-the-republicans/588602/40 "2011-07-12T18:25:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Greece is actually imploding in front of us with a number of countries right behind it. That is what is driving the public sentiment. If we don’t stop raising the debt limit then our credit rating will take a hit. The solution is pretty simple, stop spending more than is taken in. The party that is having difficulty with this is not the GOP.
[Grecians cheat on their taxes](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/world/europe/21greece.html). Greece wouldn’t be in the predicament they are in if they collected the tax revenues they are due. The Republicans are making matter worse by insisting that they shouldn’t have to pay their fair share.
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