# I Miss Film Noir **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 4, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194 "2006-04-04T04:12:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/21 "2006-04-05T04:07:30Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Humpf. I came here to nominate that, but since I’ve been beaten to the punch, how’s about [Chinatown](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071315/). Color, true, but it is period, has a loner against impossible odds, and that overall _noir_ feeling. > > DD Actually, I think you’ve won this round. I got to “Body Heat” first, but I completely forgot about “Chinatown” and it’s one of my very favorite films. :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/22 "2006-04-05T04:21:14Z")
I don’t think any serious student of film theory could dismiss _Chinatown_ or _L.A. Confidential_ as something other than film noir, even if they were made in the '70s and the '90s, respectively, and in color. I fully understand _Sin City_ was a heavy-handed homage to the genre, but those two are the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/23 "2006-04-05T05:31:26Z")
I’m not sure I buy later films-_-Chinatown, Body Heat_–as any more “noir” than _Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid_. THey’re post-noir, or faux noir, or something; they’re not pure noir. \*Film Noir \*is a term that came later, well after all the masterpieces were made. Billy Wilder had never heard of “noir” when he made _Double Indemnity_; none of the great noir masterpieces were made as noir films. So I have to separate them, as true noir. The ones that came later were pastiche, even if some of them were great films, but they weren’t noir; they were noir pastice. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/24 "2006-04-05T06:36:20Z")
I’m with **lissener**. **The Blockbuster Bros** - \*\*Spielberg \*\* & **Lucas** - has spent almost 30 years re-making movies that inspired awe in them as kids. All their efforts are either pastiches or hommages or, invariably, extremely calculated to suit critics and audiences. The last time \*\*Spielberg \*\* made a truly original movie, without pandering to box office or Oscar voters was _Jaws_. For **Lucas** it was _American Graffiti_. So they’re re-making movies and themes from their childhood. **Polanski** and **Di Palma** were doing the same with _Chinatown_ and _Body Heat_. They are probably the best “noir” films ever made (and I still enjoy them immensly), containing everything that should be in their, including a truly bent and dangerous blonde. But they are not **Noir**. If they were, I’d nominate, and this is a guilty pleasure - _Wild Things_ (note Neve Campbell’s blonde dye job at the end) as well. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/25 "2006-04-05T13:05:25Z")
When I was a kid, well before you had American Movie Classics or Turner Classic Movies, you would only ever see parodies of film noir, or even of the detective movies that are so strongly associated with the genre. I found this endlessly frustrating, because the parodies made me curious about what the real thing was like. Sure, late night on WGN you could see some Cagney and Bogart films. I spent many nights watching Cagney’s body being delivered to his mother on her doorstep. Other than that, these old films were just not shown. Finally, cable made these films available, and I have hours and hours of the stuff on VHS. But I find it kind of funny that we’re talking about the genre being dead when it has never been more available. And personally, I like the neo-noirs, though I see that some of you don’t. I mean, yes, the term ‘noir’ gets thrown around and generally conflated with ‘hard-boiled’ and ‘tough guy’ films and period pieces that involve fedoras in general. A lot of these films associated with the genre lack certain hallmarks – the play of light and shadow, the disconcerting camera angles apparently imported from German Expressionism, the unyielding doom. Some critics have suggested that there should be a term ‘film gris’ or ‘gray films’ for movies in which the light at the end of the tunnel does not turn out to be an oncoming train. We shouldn’t forget that the people who made the original noir were not self-conscious about doing so, but I wouldn’t then dismiss the work of people who do it intentionally. Sin City is very good for what it is – an amalgamation of noir conventions and comic book conventions. I daresay it’s more noir than Eliot Gould’s _The Long Goodbye_, and that is sometimes lumped right in. And when you’ve got color to work with, a lot of tricks with shadows or the light slanting through blinds don’t quite work the same way. But darkness has been used to great advantage in, for example, Dark City (the 1998 sci-fi film, not the 1950 Charlton Heston noir, q.v., featuring Jack Web as a bad guy). And I can’t argue with people who want to lump Blade Runner in with noir. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/26 "2006-04-05T17:01:48Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > It is my opinion that this is a film genre that has been neglected or satirized to the point of obscurity/absurdity, and I would like to see it return…I believe there are many “True Cime” stories just waiting to be explored, and with today’s film technology, these could be some very exciting motion pictures. The thing about film-noir is that, even for its day, it didn’t require much in the way of special effects. (We’ll conveniently ignore the low-budget sci-fi-ish [Kiss Me Deadly](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048261/).) A lot of the sensibility of film-noir came from undermining the Hays Code and/or and delivering bleak, uncompromising endings, like that of [The Asphalt Jungle](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042208/) or [Double Indemnity](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036775/). These kinds of films are still made–see [The Salton Sea](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235737/), [Presumed Innocent](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100404/), [The Grifters](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099703/), [Thief](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083190/), and [Red Rock West](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105226), among others, but they’re never big, popular blockbusters. ([Heat](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113277/) might be considered neo-noir, but it’s a standout.) For that matter, neither were the original film noir picks, many of which were considered B-list or minor A-list flics in their day. > [@buns3000](#): > > _The Man Who Wasn’t There_ is another half-decent recent(-ish) effort. No, it was a deliberate satire of film-noir. A great movie, actually, but played for comedy > [@Gordon Urquhart](#): > > [Kiss Kiss Bang Bang](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373469/) provided one of the best times I had in a movie theater last year – it’s pretty lighthearted, but it doesn’t take much stretching to fit under a _film noir_ descriptor. I’m glad somebody else enjoyed the film–apparently Warner Bros. hated it so much they’re refusing to release it on DVD–but it is again a deliberate satire of film noir and detective mysteries. There are a lot of noir-ish influences out there, any many films that pay homage to or rip off the classics of film noir (read: nearly everything ever directed by Brian De Palma after _The Untouchables_), but classics like [Out Of The Past](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039689/) and [The Maltese Falcon](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033870/) were products of their day by audiences not yet jaded. Stranger . ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/27 "2006-04-05T17:42:02Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > You can’t do true noir today. I want to emphasize what others have said. Noir was a cultural response to a particular time in history. Post WWII the world was in tatters, both physically and emotionally. Lots of soldiers came back home with what today we would call Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. They had the skills to kill and the knowledge of personal death-dealing, and found that the consumerist society around them held no place for their sort. > > In addition, the light fantasies of Hollywood were no longer as interesting to an audience who had seen the dark side of the world. Because of the war and the change in the audience the films could take a fresh, darker, and above all more cynical view of everyday life in America. Cynicism is a response to wartime experiences that followed the Civil War, WWI, WWII, and Vietnam. It’s not a core American value, and the cynical periods are always short lived. Americans replace cynicism with the more palatable irony. > > That’s where we are now. None of the cultural impulses behind noir exist. The Iraq War is too limited to affect the greater mass of the viewing public. We are in a veritable Golden Age of prosperity and consumerism. We are essentially shock-proof as well: no commentary on American life or values is taboo in mainstream movies. (Not the same thing as the taboo on hardcore sex.) Noir was a statement that mainstream America had changed. There has been no such change in mainstream America in recent years to match that. > > Noir doesn’t exist because there is nothing for it to comment on. There are still issues, of course, and there is still darkness, but they aren’t the same and the true original responses are different. It’s the difference between rhythm ‘n’ blues and rap. You can trace the evolution of one to the other, but rap is today’s idiom of response and rhythm ‘n’ blues can only be referenced as a look to the past. > > Some aspects of art are timeless, and some are time dependent. Noir is the latter. Wow. I always thought it was guys with guns and lotsa cool shadows. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/28 "2006-04-05T18:04:07Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I’m glad somebody else enjoyed the film–apparently Warner Bros. hated it so much they’re refusing to release it on DVD–but it is again a deliberate satire of film noir and detective mysteries. What what WHAT? It was one of the best movies to come out last year, and if I wasn’t a movie geek, it would have sailed under my radar, completely undetected during its brief stint in theaters. I was really looking forward to a cool DVD presentation of \*Kiss Kiss \* (hopefully with commentary by Shane Black, Downey, and Kilmer). Do you have a cite for the non-release information? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/29 "2006-04-05T19:01:28Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > What what WHAT? It was one of the best movies to come out last year, and if I wasn’t a movie geek, it would have sailed under my radar, completely undetected during its brief stint in theaters. I was really looking forward to a cool DVD presentation of \*Kiss Kiss \* (hopefully with commentary by Shane Black, Downey, and Kilmer). Do you have a cite for the non-release information? I recant; I just checked on Amazon and they now list a release date for [the DVD](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F5GNX8/) as June 16th. Although I can’t cite it, the word was that there were some legal battles between Black and Warner Bros. owning to Warner’s lack of marketing support and promotion for the film. As you note, there was virtually no marketing campaign for it and extremely limited distribution; it was obvious that someone had an agenda to junk the film; stupid, because as a Christmas-themed action film (harkening back to _Lethal Weapon_ and _Die Hard_) it probably could have cleaned up had even a modest effort been made. Given that studios are releasing films on DVD two and three months after theatrical release, I don’t have any other explanation for why this one sits around for six months. Grr. And I agree with your abbreviated review of the film; it’s a really fun take on buddy detective movies and film noir. (The titles of the"chapters" of the film are taken from Raymond Chandler novels and Black has great fun with the protagonist narration meme.) But it doesn’t qualify as they type of thing **Quasimodem** is looking for; it’s pure satire of film noir and Hollywood thrillers with a modest amount of action. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/30 "2006-04-05T21:12:41Z")
The connection to noir is tenuous at best, but you might look into the Nero Wolfe TV series; originally on A&E, it now plays Saturday nights on Biography Channel. Archie Goodwin, Wolfe’s confidental assistant, frequent goad, and all around legman is unmistakably drawn from the ‘hard-boiled’ tradition, and he even provides smart-alecky first-person narration. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/31 "2006-04-05T21:43:57Z")
More “neo noir” - Blade Runner and Blue Velvet. This was my never written thesis. Film Noir can be broken into two categories - classical film noir which reached its height in the 1950s, and neo or post-classical film noir - which starts with the release of Chinatown. Neo film noir is aware of its roots - its directors are all film school graduates who have heard of Raul Walsh - so yeah - paradoy or pastich e or homage (I think homage is the actual intent of something like Blood Simple). But after Cahiers du Cinema, I don’t think that anyone who directs can make a noir that isn’t self aware. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/32 "2006-04-05T22:11:51Z")
> [@Lemur Catta](#): > > The connection to noir is tenuous at best, but you might look into the Nero Wolfe TV series; originally on A&E, it now plays Saturday nights on Biography Channel. Archie Goodwin, Wolfe’s confidental assistant, frequent goad, and all around legman is unmistakably drawn from the ‘hard-boiled’ tradition, and he even provides smart-alecky first-person narration. Well, from the beginning Archie was a satire on hard-boiled detectives, just as Wolfe was a satire on “armchair” detectives. The first Wolfe novels date from the early 30s, before Chandler had published a single novel and in fact only a few months after Chandler’s first published story. They were never truly hard-boiled, even at the time, preceded film noir by over a decade, and belong somewhere more in the tradition of the screwball comedy than either. The tv series is pure parody. I’m also one of the few who saw and liked _Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang_. I wish Black would give up the commentary on film clichés and write something real, but I loved everything he did in that film. But for something much closer to noir and a real Christmas thriller, you have to go with _The Ice Harvest_, which received no more attention but was filled with good writing and better performances. The leaden skies of a Midwest Christmas eve worked as a substitute for b&w and the plot was straight out of an old movie. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/33 "2006-04-05T22:46:58Z")
Another poster pulling for **Brick** , the little movie that could. Just don’t go into it thinking it’ll be Bugsy Malone meets Dashiell Hammet. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/34 "2006-04-05T22:47:31Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > But for something much closer to noir and a real Christmas thriller, you have to go with _The Ice Harvest_, which received no more attention but was filled with good writing and better performances. The leaden skies of a Midwest Christmas eve worked as a substitute for b&w and the plot was straight out of an old movie. What was it even about? I saw a few brief TV commercials that revealed nothing about the plot, or even what genre it was (slapstick comedy or gangster/crime movie?). I like John Cusack anyway, so if it’s a decent movie, I ought to rent it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/35 "2006-04-05T23:11:46Z")
> [@Lemur Catta](#): > > The connection to noir is tenuous at best, but you might look into the Nero Wolfe TV series; originally on A&E, it now plays Saturday nights on Biography Channel. Archie Goodwin, Wolfe’s confidental assistant, frequent goad, and all around legman is unmistakably drawn from the ‘hard-boiled’ tradition, and he even provides smart-alecky first-person narration. My take on Nero Wolfe is that it is a successful attempt to blend two mystery genres – the hardboiled dick and the armchair detective. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/36 "2006-04-05T23:41:11Z")
Speaking of film noir: [http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2003/07/03/boll/story.gif](http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2003/07/03/boll/story.gif) ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/37 "2006-04-06T00:36:42Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Well, from the beginning Archie was a satire on hard-boiled detectives, just as Wolfe was a satire on “armchair” detectives. The first Wolfe novels date from the early 30s, before Chandler had published a single novel and in fact only a few months after Chandler’s first published story. They were never truly hard-boiled, even at the time, preceded film noir by over a decade, and belong somewhere more in the tradition of the screwball comedy than either. The tv series is pure parody. Is there actually material indicating that Stout thought of it as satirical, or is that just your thought on it? I’ve never read anything from Stout to that effect, though if he thought so, that’s fine too; I’m hooked on the books and series anyway. Similarly, I dunno if Timothy Hutton thinks of the series as parody. I’m not trying to be confrontational, thoough I"m probably coming off that way–I’m just honestly curious if there’s anything indicating Stout thought of the books that way. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/38 "2006-04-06T03:24:14Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > What was it even about? I saw a few brief TV commercials that revealed nothing about the plot, or even what genre it was (slapstick comedy or gangster/crime movie?). I like John Cusack anyway, so if it’s a decent movie, I ought to rent it. More than decent, less than great. [This review](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-1153131/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1455314) gives a good summary. > [@Johnny Angel](#): > > My take on Nero Wolfe is that it is a successful attempt to blend two mystery genres – the hardboiled dick and the armchair detective. Good take, Johnny. Could hardly have said it better myself. :rolleyes: > [@Lemur Catta](#): > > Is there actually material indicating that Stout thought of it as satirical, or is that just your thought on it? I’ve never read anything from Stout to that effect, though if he thought so, that’s fine too; I’m hooked on the books and series anyway. Similarly, I dunno if Timothy Hutton thinks of the series as parody. I’m not trying to be confrontational, thoough I"m probably coming off that way–I’m just honestly curious if there’s anything indicating Stout thought of the books that way. They’re my thoughts, although I didn’t think there was anything especially original about them. If you’ve read a lot of stuff from the 30s as I have, it just seems obvious. Both Wolfe and Archie are types rather than human beings, and the archetypes are clear. Stout wanted to be a great writer, found instead he was a great storyteller. And he had a wicked sense of humor. Take a look at his infamous [Watson Was a Woman?](http://www.nerowolfe.org/htm/stout/Watson_was_a_woman.htm). As for the tv series: If you want to call it pastiche, I might go that far, but the shows were so stylized that they felt like they were playing with my expectations every minute rather than trying to immerse me in their reality. By far my favorite [Nero Wolfe movie](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076447/) is the 1979 tv movie adaptation of _The Doorbell Rang_ with Thayer David as the best Wolfe ever. Sadly, David died before the movie was ever shown, preventing any sequels. It’s hardly ever rerun and not available in any format I’m aware of, so it’s mostly a curiosity now. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/39 "2006-04-06T03:40:41Z")
I’ve always thought _The Big Lebowski_ was a brilliant take on noir. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194/40 "2006-04-07T00:23:34Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > They’re my thoughts, although I didn’t think there was anything especially original about them. If you’ve read a lot of stuff from the 30s as I have, it just seems obvious. Both Wolfe and Archie are types rather than human beings, and the archetypes are clear. Stout wanted to be a great writer, found instead he was a great storyteller. And he had a wicked sense of humor. Take a look at his infamous [Watson Was a Woman?](http://www.nerowolfe.org/htm/stout/Watson_was_a_woman.htm). It’s cool. I dig Wolfe, but they’re books/TV episodes/stories that I read for fun and escape, not to analyze much. I think I see where you’re at, I’m just not sure if I’d call it satire. No worries and thanks for the response. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-miss-film-noir/351194.md?page=3)