# I murder my granny, the cops search my house. Constitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649 "2010-10-10T01:25:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/21 "2010-10-10T23:27:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Is is true as in TV police shows that the police go to “friendly” judges whom they know will sign almost any warrent the police want? Sometimes, especially after normal court hours. But most jurisdictions (like here in Hennepin County) there is an assigned schedule for the District Court Judges to each take their turn being on-call for such warrant requests. Also, note that they have to present a minimally reasonable case for the judge – no matter how ‘friendly’ he is, the warrant would still have to stand up on appeal. If a later court rules that the warrant was invalid or obtained fraudulently, I believe any evidence obtained from it would be excluded from court, making it worthless. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/22 "2010-10-10T23:59:38Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > I think you’re also missing the point a couple of others have made: _they’re searching for more than just the gun_. Yes, you could have ditched it somewhere in those intervening 5 miles. Did you also strip naked, wash several times using multiple different solvents and surfactants, put on a fresh set of previously-sealed clothes in a different room, burn the old clothes and anything else you touched, and reduce your vehicle to its component molecules, in those 5 miles? If the answer is “no,” there’s a reasonable suspicion that there’s some valuable evidence in your home worth a search warrant. If you were Abbey on NCIS, you just might =) Or you could spend some cash and buy: [tyvek coveralls](http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308055_200308055?cm_ven=Aggregates&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=Safety%3ESafety%20Vests%20%2B%20Apparel&cm_ite=174719?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=174719) $7.99 [tyvek booties](http://www.twinsrecreation.com/fs200136.html) $1.96 [cotton glove liners](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves.php) $0.65 [butyl gloves](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves1.php) $20.85 [3M™ Particulate Respirator 8293](http://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8293-P100/dp/B001DD3GN6) $6.84 and a roll of duct tape to seal around the wrists and ankles. Wear over your clothing, cap granny, then head elsewhere other than straight home that is not in line between granny’s and home, strip off the tyvek togs that kept your DNA, loose hairs, fibers and whatnot from being left behind, any blood spatter and whatnot from granny’s from getting on your clothing, and dispose of them [garbage at a paint shop springs to mind] and then go home. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Voice_of_Sanity)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/23 "2010-10-11T00:13:37Z")
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. So what do the cops do? They get a warrant and take everything they think **might** help them to frame the person their tunnel vision has fixed on. So much for the 4th. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Voice_of_Sanity)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/24 "2010-10-11T00:18:34Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Seriously, though. I’m thinking of stuff like maybe Scott Peterson? Timothy McVeigh? OJ? Didn’t the police come up with warrants for these guys? I know OJ didn’t tell anybody that he had a knife. Peterson, who knows about that idiot. The search warrants for Scott Peterson remain sealed to this day. No one knows why, but the suspicion is that the MPD lied to get them and, if so, the whole case may collapse. It should be noted that he fully cooperated with the cops and said they could search anywhere anytime. All he asked was that they issued receipts for whatever they took. They agreed to do that - and they lied. They took stuff without ever telling him or issuing receipts. They admitted this in court under oath. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/25 "2010-10-11T02:36:28Z")
> [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](#): > > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. > > So what do the cops do? They get a warrant and take everything they think **might** help them to frame the person their tunnel vision has fixed on. So much for the 4th. No. That’s just it - they can’t seize just anything and everything. What they can seize has to be delimited in the warrant and by common sense. For example: you are a suspect in a burglary in which 50 inch HD TV sets were taken from a warehouse. I obtain a search warrant for your house and grounds detailing those TV sets. While I’m there, I open a kitchen cabinet door and look under your sink and find a bag of coke. I promptly bust you for possession. The case gets tossed because the coke was not in plain view and I had NO reasonable expectation of finding a 50 inch TV set under the sink. Search warrants are not an invitation to conduct a fishing expedition. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/26 "2010-10-11T02:52:18Z")
Right. But if they see a closet, and the closet is big enough to hide a TV, and they open the door and find your cocaine inside, then you’re screwed, even though the warrant didn’t list “cocaine”. If they find evidence of another crime in the process of looking for evidence of the crime listed on the warrant, that evidence is admissible. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/27 "2010-10-11T03:00:59Z")
I don’t know how it pertains to actual house searches for physical objects, but the Patriot Act gives the Federal government near carte-blanche authority to search records and other forms of data in suspected terrorism cases. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/28 "2010-10-11T03:29:26Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Is is true as in TV police shows that the police go to “friendly” judges whom they know will sign almost any warrent the police want? When I was a prosecutor in a large Ohio urban area in the late Nineties, we each had to be on night duty for a few weeks every year. Our office lent us pagers, the numbers to which were provided to local cops, and we were given lists with the names and home phone numbers of local judges. I prepared IIRC four search warrants on my home computer when I was called by cops; I had a template and it was surprisingly easy to customize them. We could call any judge on the list we wanted. Some had a reputation for being more easily persuaded than others, and we were encouraged (but not required) to call them when we had an iffy warrant. I usually just called the same judge, who was (a) smart, (b) lived nearby, (c) didn’t mind being called at all hours, (d) knew and trusted me, and (e) was careful but not anal-retentive. The thing that stuck in my mind was that if the search warrant was to be executed at night, we had to use the phrase “in the night season,” which was an odd bit of verbiage, I thought. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/29 "2010-10-11T03:48:26Z")
> [@Thalion](#): > > > [@suranyi](#): > > > > Don’t forget: The Amendment prohibits “unreasonable” searches. If a search is reasonable, it is allowed, even if there is no warrant. > > That’s not quite accurate. Any search without a warrant is _per se_ unreasonable, unless one of the “jealously guarded” exceptions to the warrant requirement is present. These include consent, exigent circumstances, protective search, open view, plain view and search incident to arrest. Well, that’s what I meant. Those searches are considered reasonable, and hence allowable, even without a search warrant. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Voice_of_Sanity)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/30 "2010-10-11T03:59:29Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well, that’s what I meant. Those searches are considered reasonable, and hence allowable, even without a search warrant. What do you think of a constitution which is generally ignored in favor of the phrase of “Larry the Cable Guy”: \* “Let’s git 'er done”?\* So much for strict constructionism and “non activist” judges! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/31 "2010-10-11T17:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What do you think of a constitution which is generally ignored in favor of the phrase of “Larry the Cable Guy”: > > “Let’s git 'er done”? I think that would be a very bad thing, and that it’s therefore a good thing that the Constitution isn’t generally ignored in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Voice_of_Sanity)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/32 "2010-10-11T18:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > What do you think of a constitution which is generally ignored in favor of the phrase of “Larry the Cable Guy”: “Let’s git 'er done”? > [@Chronos](#): > > I think that would be a very bad thing, and that it’s therefore a good thing that the Constitution isn’t generally ignored in this regard. That seems to be wishful thinking. I see constant ignoring of the constitution. When the language is plain and the Supremes invent exceptions which reduce the rights of the citizen but support invented rights for corporations and other artificial bodies which also reduce the rights of the citizen – then Larry rules OK. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/33 "2010-10-11T20:06:36Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > > [@paperbackwriter](#): > > > > I think you’re also missing the point a couple of others have made: _they’re searching for more than just the gun_. Yes, you could have ditched it somewhere in those intervening 5 miles. Did you also strip naked, wash several times using multiple different solvents and surfactants, put on a fresh set of previously-sealed clothes in a different room, burn the old clothes and anything else you touched, and reduce your vehicle to its component molecules, in those 5 miles? If the answer is “no,” there’s a reasonable suspicion that there’s some valuable evidence in your home worth a search warrant. > > If you were Abbey on NCIS, you just might =) > > Or you could spend some cash and buy: > [tyvek coveralls](http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308055_200308055?cm_ven=Aggregates&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=Safety%3ESafety%20Vests%20%2B%20Apparel&cm_ite=174719?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=174719) $7.99 > [tyvek booties](http://www.twinsrecreation.com/fs200136.html) $1.96 > [cotton glove liners](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves.php) $0.65 > [butyl gloves](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves1.php) $20.85 > [3M™ Particulate Respirator 8293](http://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8293-P100/dp/B001DD3GN6) $6.84 > and a roll of duct tape to seal around the wrists and ankles. > > Wear over your clothing, cap granny, then head elsewhere other than straight home that is not in line between granny’s and home, strip off the tyvek togs that kept your DNA, loose hairs, fibers and whatnot from being left behind, any blood spatter and whatnot from granny’s from getting on your clothing, and dispose of them [garbage at a paint shop springs to mind] and then go home. Actually, you’d be in real trouble with those coveralls, you really need [the hooded variety](http://protective-clothing.net/tyvek-coveralls/tyvek-coveralls-with-hood/individual-disposable-coveralls-with-hoods) to prevent hair samples. If you’re going that far, then why limit yourself to half-measures like a dinky little face mask? Go for the [full-face respirator instead](http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=4011310), then you can seal it to the outside of the overall’s hood and have complete protection. In all seriousness, though, if the police have probable cause to suspect **HH** in the untimely demise of his unfortunate grandmother, there’s no initial reason to assume he took either proposed course of action to minimize physical evidence. The police have a reasonable suspicion that there will be multiple pieces of evidence relevant to the investigation in **HH** ’s abode. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/34 "2010-10-11T20:09:35Z")
> [@Thalion](#): > > That’s not quite accurate. Any search without a warrant is _per se_ unreasonable, unless one of the “jealously guarded” exceptions to the warrant requirement is present. These include consent, exigent circumstances, protective search, open view, plain view and search incident to arrest. Is there a difference between open view and plain view? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/35 "2010-10-11T20:23:00Z")
> [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](#): > > What do you think of a constitution which is generally ignored in favor of the phrase of “Larry the Cable Guy”: > \* > “Let’s git 'er done”?\* [moderating] We’re drifting away from General Questions territory and into Great Debates with posts like this. Let’s keep the thread on its GQ track, please. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/36 "2010-10-11T21:01:41Z")
To expand this just a bit. Popo gets his warrant and finds the locked safe in my closet. I suppose he would then instruct me to open it or tell him the combination. What happens when I tell him to defenestrate himself? I’m assuming the same standard would apply as the above mentioned 50" tv and the cabinet under the sink. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/37 "2010-10-11T21:22:43Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > To expand this just a bit. Popo gets his warrant and finds the locked safe in my closet. I suppose he would then instruct me to open it or tell him the combination. What happens when I tell him to defenestrate himself? > > I’m assuming the same standard would apply as the above mentioned 50" tv and the cabinet under the sink. Depends on what he’s looking for (can it fit inside a safe?) and how general the warrant is worded. He may have to go get another warrant specifically specifying “contents of the safe in the closet…”. Then he asks you to open it or give you the combination to open it. If you refuse, he can legally call in a locksmith to open it by whatever means necessary. And anything they find inside can then be used as evidence in court. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/38 "2010-10-11T22:02:22Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Right. But if they see a closet, and the closet is big enough to hide a TV, and they open the door and find your cocaine inside, then you’re screwed, even though the warrant didn’t list “cocaine”. If they find evidence of another crime in the process of looking for evidence of the crime listed on the warrant, that evidence is admissible. That is correct. The area being searched is reasonable, in that the object(s) being searched for could have been stored there. And any contraband found while legally executing a search warrant is admissible. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Voice_of_Sanity)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/39 "2010-10-11T22:05:14Z")
> [@A\_Voice\_of\_Sanity](#): > > What do you think of a constitution which is generally ignored in favor of the phrase of “Larry the Cable Guy”: > \* > “Let’s git 'er done”?\* [quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:35, topic:556649”] [moderating] We’re drifting away from General Questions territory and into Great Debates with posts like this. Let’s keep the thread on its GQ track, please. [/moderating] [/QUOTE] I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649/40 "2010-10-11T22:20:03Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > > [@aruvqan](#): > > > > If you were Abbey on NCIS, you just might =) > > > > Or you could spend some cash and buy: > > [tyvek coveralls](http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308055_200308055?cm_ven=Aggregates&cm_cat=Google&cm_pla=Safety%3ESafety%20Vests%20%2B%20Apparel&cm_ite=174719?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=174719) $7.99 > > [tyvek booties](http://www.twinsrecreation.com/fs200136.html) $1.96 > > [cotton glove liners](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves.php) $0.65 > > [butyl gloves](http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/cmgloves1.php) $20.85 > > [3M™ Particulate Respirator 8293](http://www.amazon.com/3M-Particulate-Respirator-8293-P100/dp/B001DD3GN6) $6.84 > > and a roll of duct tape to seal around the wrists and ankles. > > > > Wear over your clothing, cap granny, then head elsewhere other than straight home that is not in line between granny’s and home, strip off the tyvek togs that kept your DNA, loose hairs, fibers and whatnot from being left behind, any blood spatter and whatnot from granny’s from getting on your clothing, and dispose of them [garbage at a paint shop springs to mind] and then go home. > > Actually, you’d be in real trouble with those coveralls, you really need [the hooded variety](http://protective-clothing.net/tyvek-coveralls/tyvek-coveralls-with-hood/individual-disposable-coveralls-with-hoods) to prevent hair samples. If you’re going that far, then why limit yourself to half-measures like a dinky little face mask? Go for the [full-face respirator instead](http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=4011310), then you can seal it to the outside of the overall’s hood and have complete protection. > > In all seriousness, though, if the police have probable cause to suspect **HH** in the untimely demise of his unfortunate grandmother, there’s no initial reason to assume he took either proposed course of action to minimize physical evidence. The police have a reasonable suspicion that there will be multiple pieces of evidence relevant to the investigation in **HH** ’s abode. I just grabbed the first coverall, I didnt really examine the picture … And no on the respirator, no paint shop would throw away a full faced respirator [or scott airpack] and you need to make it look like a normal bit of trash, otherwise someone would remember it. That particulate filter is frequently used and tossed in various parts of industry. besides, someone might remember the person buying a full faced mask. Anybody can buy the particulate filter if they are doing something really yucky like sanding a floor or painting furniture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-murder-my-granny-the-cops-search-my-house-constitutional/556649.md?page=3)