# I must admit, I'm surprised and disappointed **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 5, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956 "2012-11-05T15:02:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/41 "2012-11-05T16:58:29Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Which is a shame because that happened right when there were rumblings that the money machine was going to start spending it on down-ticket races and initiatives. Provided Obama still pulls it off, I’m pretty OK with the idea of perhaps one less R senator, or a few less R congressmen. Much better to have the money-men throwing sacks of bills down the Romney rat hole. It may be a wash though, because Obama’s debate v.1 performance may have pulled D money from down-ticket races to shore up the top guy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/42 "2012-11-05T17:00:13Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Romney’s failure to release his tax returns. I would thought have some Pubbies felt that this was important information. I think the Democrats got most of the mileage out of this issue. People were aware that Romney was refusing to release his returns and they were aware that Romney is very rich. The actual returns most likely wouldn’t have shown anything more than the use of specific tax loopholes. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > voter suppression–GOP officials restricting voting hours, access, etc. selectively in Democratic districts and the new poll tax (photo ID) issues, again, are things I would have thought offended more fair-minded GOP voters in general Not an issue with traction. Many voters see the country divided into “us” and “them” - and the people these policies were directed against were “them”. So this wasn’t an issue that was going to swing voters from one party to the other. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Romney’s vagueness: usually voters demand some degree of specificity regarding a challenger’s plans (the incumbent gets more of a pass, since you have his track record to examine.) > > Romney’s flip-flops: again, some degree of flipflopping is inevitable, but Romney seems to have lapped John Kerry, for example, several times over, yet to have been damaged by his policy switches far less than Kerry was. An overplayed issue in my opinion. Yes, Romney was vague and flip-flopped. But I don’t think he set new records in either category as his opponents claim. He just ran a generic campaign because he thought this was his best strategy. > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Religion: I’m a little surprised that so many evangelical Christians are fine with Romney’s cult while continuing to revile Obama for his mainstream Xian beliefs. Like you said, ideology has won over doctrine. Religious conservatives have become more of a political faction than a religious one. Conservative Protestants, Conservative Catholics, Conservative Jews, and Conservative Mormons have all been working together to advance their conservative beliefs while agreeing to disagree on their religious differences. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/43 "2012-11-05T17:05:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Aren’t you getting tired of this schtick yet? We’ll only have this debate once a Republican gets in and continues some of the more odious policies that Obama has introduced and or entrenched (ie the kill list). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/44 "2012-11-05T17:06:28Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > It did make a dent but them Obama fucked up the first debate. Right, but a candidate saying point blank many of the people voting for him _and_ his opponent are lazy and don’t take responsibility for their lives, saying later he stands by that remark, and Obama’s advantage was undone by him ‘looking sleepy’ in one debate. Historians won’t be able to explain that. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/45 "2012-11-05T17:11:40Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > We’ll only have this debate once a Republican gets in and continues some of the more odious policies that Obama has introduced and or entrenched (ie the kill list). Ummm…we are calling that the “disposition matrix” now. Didn’t you get the memo? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/46 "2012-11-05T17:14:29Z")
_Obama came into office with a massive mandate, overwhelming control of Congress_… Yeah, I don’t remember it quite like this, either. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/47 "2012-11-05T17:15:19Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Right, but a candidate saying point blank many of the people voting for him _and_ his opponent are lazy and don’t take responsibility for their lives, saying later he stands by that remark, and Obama’s advantage was undone by him ‘looking sleepy’ in one debate. > > Historians won’t be able to explain that. Of course they will. A whole lot of people only knew Romney through the negative ads that Obama ran. I think a lot of people were surprised to see that Romney did not have horns on his head. I think they were more surprised to see Romney wipe the floor with a sitting president. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/48 "2012-11-05T17:32:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the Democrats got most of the mileage out of this issue. People were aware that Romney was refusing to release his returns and they were aware that Romney is very rich. The actual returns most likely wouldn’t have shown anything more than the use of specific tax loopholes. Except for that niggling little fact that Harry Reid was right and that Romney paid no federal income taxes for 10 years. Well, he was kind of wrong. Romney paid as close to zero as possible without actually being zero, not for 10 years, but for 15, using a loophole that was closed only shortly after he took advantage of it. Bloomberg broke the story a week ago. The mainstream media has ignored it. [Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/49 "2012-11-05T17:35:00Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Of course they will. A whole lot of people only knew Romney through the negative ads that Obama ran. I think a lot of people were surprised to see that Romney did not have horns on his head. I think they were more surprised to see Romney wipe the floor with a sitting president. By historians I mean objective people. Of course partisan hacks already have an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/50 "2012-11-05T17:37:53Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Except for that niggling little fact that Harry Reid was right and that Romney paid no federal income taxes for 10 years. Well, he was kind of wrong. Romney paid as close to zero as possible without actually being zero, not for 10 years, but for 15, using a loophole that was closed only shortly after he took advantage of it. First, I ever since we’ve had a black president, I’m not sure we’re allowed to use the word ‘niggling’. Second, saying the he ‘took advantage’ of a ‘loophole’ implies that he did something illegal, or at least unethical. It’s not a ‘loophole’, it’s the way the law was written, and if it works in someone’s favor then oh well. If there were a ‘loophole’ that allowed me to pay no federal taxes, you can bet your ass I’d ‘take advantage’ of it. This is a non-issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/51 "2012-11-05T17:41:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > By historians I mean objective people. Of course partisan hacks already have an explanation. No…partisan hacks are the ones that are confused about how Obama could lose so much ground in one poor debate. Look in the mirror. You can’t seem to imagine how much it benefits a relative unknown to stand face-to-face with the president and seem so much stronger than the president? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/52 "2012-11-05T17:42:24Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > Does it ever occur to Ds here that maybe the country actually is populated by a majority of people who agree with the R party? So where were they in 1992, 1996, and 2008? Most people are not hard line partisans. That’s just the empirical truth; if the majority of people agreed with the Republican Party, Romney would be winning a 1984-level landslide, not just having a chance. And of course it works the other way; it’s certainly impossible the majority of people agree with the Democratic party, or else it’d be an Obama landslide, and George W. Bush would never have been President. Lots and lots of people can be swayed. The evidence would suggest the partisan base is more like 35% of the electorate, since that appears to be about as badly as you can, in theory, do. It is indisputably the case that Presidents like Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan can convince way more than half the people that they are the right man for the job. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/53 "2012-11-05T17:43:05Z")
I think yorick73 is at least somewhat right about the debate. It will be small enough comfort if Romney ends up losing, but I think he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/54 "2012-11-05T17:47:40Z")
If the economy is terrible, people will vote against the incumbent. It’s just too easy for the challenger to say “Look how much your life sucks, do you really want this guy to stay in charge?” Look what happened to Jimmy Carter and George HW Bush. If the Republicans were running a charismatic inspirational leader, Obama would be toast. The fact that he’s competitive, let alone the slight favorite is astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/55 "2012-11-05T17:48:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And of course it works the other way; it’s certainly impossible the majority of people agree with the Democratic party, or else it’d be an Obama landslide, and George W. Bush would never have been President. While I agree with your general point, I don’t think it’s necessarily true, given that Democratic voters are simply less likely to vote. If everyone who agreed with the Democratic platform registered and voted, there would be Democratic landslides in many places that are purple now. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/56 "2012-11-05T18:00:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > While I agree with your general point, I don’t think it’s necessarily true, given that Democratic voters are simply less likely to vote. If everyone who agreed with the Democratic platform registered and voted, there would be Democratic landslides in many places that are purple now. This is true. It’s about voter turnout to a large extent, hence all the Republican voter suppression tactics. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/57 "2012-11-05T18:08:40Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > 1. Religion: I’m a little surprised that so many evangelical Christians are fine with Romney’s cult while continuing to revile Obama for his mainstream Xian beliefs. > Ideology trumps values, I suppose, so this was a little naive of me to expect otherwise. > > There’s more , but these are the biggest surprises. Given these facts, I would have predicted an electoral blowout for Obama. The LDS Church is no more a cult than mainstream Christianity. I was with you until you made this blatant bigoted argument. cult/kəlt/ Noun: ``` A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. ``` Go by the first definition all monotheistic religions are cults. Go by the second definition the LDS church may have started out cult-like in the 1880s but is certainly not anymore. Next tired/blatantly erroneous criticism of one or both of the candidates please. The blatant falsities are what makes this election so close. Independents like me don’t want to vote for either candidate because we can’t stand either side and their stupidity, so there is no telling how us undecideds will vote. I blame ugly partisans politicos which basically shot themselves in the foot if they expected to earn the independent vote in any significant percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/58 "2012-11-05T18:09:18Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Second, saying the he ‘took advantage’ of a ‘loophole’ implies that he did something illegal, or at least unethical. > > It’s not a ‘loophole’, it’s the way the law was written, and if it works in someone’s favor then oh well. > > If there were a ‘loophole’ that allowed me to pay no federal taxes, you can bet your ass I’d ‘take advantage’ of it. > > This is a non-issue for me. It was unethical in the sense that it was unforseen that it would be used in that manner, and when discovered, was legally shut down. “Thus, the specifics of Romney’s trust wouldn’t have passed legal muster if it had been set up 13 months later, he said.” But that’s not exactly the point. The larger point that Democrats are trying to make is that the Republican tax policies that Mitt Romney not only avails himself of, but supports legislatively, are designed to only benefit the ultra-wealthy _at the expense of the rest of the country_, and in this case, including the charities these trusts were allegedly set up to support. Ordinary taxpayers don’t have access to these kinds of “loopholes” that Republicans have designed for their wealthy benefactors’ sole use, and that’s not only unethical and immoral, but it’s decidedly unpatriotic. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > If the economy is terrible, people will vote against the incumbent. It’s just too easy for the challenger to say “Look how much your life sucks, do you really want this guy to stay in charge?” Look what happened to Jimmy Carter and George HW Bush. If the Republicans were running a charismatic inspirational leader, Obama would be toast. The fact that he’s competitive, let alone the slight favorite is astonishing. Not really. [Actually, More Americans Say They Are Better Off Now Than Last Year.](http://www.businessinsider.com/more-americans-feel-better-off-financially-2012-10) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/59 "2012-11-05T18:14:31Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > The LDS Church is no more a cult than mainstream Christianity. I was with you until you made this blatant bigoted argument. Except that I don’t think that the poster made the bigoted argument… I think he or she was saying that many Protestants and other Christians view Mormonism as a cult, not that the poster personally did. And that is true, whether you like it or not or agree with it or not. The poster can correct me if I am mistaken… ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/60 "2012-11-05T18:16:49Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Except for that niggling little fact that Harry Reid was right and that Romney paid no federal income taxes for 10 years. Well, he was kind of wrong. Romney paid as close to zero as possible without actually being zero, not for 10 years, but for 15, using a loophole that was closed only shortly after he took advantage of it. > > Bloomberg broke the story a week ago. The mainstream media has ignored it. > > [Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html) Thanks for posting that. As I read it, Harry Reid probably got his information from someone within the LDS church familiar with Romney’s donations. I could see that a honestly tithing Mormon would be especially offended at someone using the their obligation in this way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956.md?page=4)