# I must admit, I'm surprised and disappointed **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 5, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956 "2012-11-05T15:02:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/61 "2012-11-05T18:19:02Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Except that I don’t think that the poster made the bigoted argument… I think he or she was saying that many Protestants and other Christians view Mormonism as a cult, not that the poster personally did. > > And that is true, whether you like it or not or agree with it or not. > > The poster can correct me if I am mistaken… If that is what they meant than I redact my statement. However, they could have put “cult” in quotes or clarified that they found it ironic that those who call Mormons cultists are now promoting a Mormon candidate. I however, being LDS myself, don’t find Romney anymore Mormon than Kennedy was Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/62 "2012-11-05T18:21:24Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Thanks for posting that. As I read it, Harry Reid probably got his information from someone within the LDS church familiar with Romney’s donations. I could see that a honestly tithing Mormon would be especially offended at someone using the their obligation in this way. Absolutely. I struggle to make my 10% every paycheck and I do it because of my faith and because I have had to use Church Welfare services a few times and being a full tithe payer I know that my contribution has helped others who need financial help as I did, but to use it as a tax evasion/tax break is dishonest and not what it is intended for. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/63 "2012-11-05T18:22:49Z")
but that is enough thread jacking, so I will shut up about the Mormon thing now. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/64 "2012-11-05T18:39:39Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > The blatant falsities are what makes this election so close. Independents like me don’t want to vote for either candidate because we can’t stand either side and their stupidity, so there is no telling how us undecideds will vote. I blame ugly partisans politicos which basically shot themselves in the foot if they expected to earn the independent vote in any significant percentage. Forget campaign rhetoric and focus on outcomes. When you do that, there is really only one choice if you want to see the country prosper and thrive. [16 Reasons Even Conservatives Should Vote For President Obama And Democrats](http://www.winningwordsproject.com/16_reasons_conservatives_should_vote_for_president_obama_and_democrats) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/65 "2012-11-05T19:36:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > While I agree with your general point, I don’t think it’s necessarily true, given that Democratic voters are simply less likely to vote. People who do not vote are not voters. > [@](#): > > If everyone who agreed with the Democratic platform registered and voted, there would be Democratic landslides in many places that are purple now. Logically, this must also hold true of people who agree with the Republican platform. I have a lot of difficulty believing that Republicans have fantastic turnout. If conservatives are typically likelier to vote, we would see better turnout in conservative-leaning states. But that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/66 "2012-11-05T20:09:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People who do not vote are not voters. Then substitute “people” for voters. > [@](#): > > Logically, this must also hold true of people who agree with the Republican platform. I have a lot of difficulty believing that Republicans have fantastic turnout. > > If conservatives are typically likelier to vote, we would see better turnout in conservative-leaning states. But that is not the case. More people in the US lean toward supporting Democratic positions. Out of that pool, fewer vote than from the pool of people who support Republican positions, and it’s a fairly pronounced skew. I’m not sure why you think it’s illogical that it’s true, but it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/67 "2012-11-05T20:44:13Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Except for that niggling little fact that Harry Reid was right and that Romney paid no federal income taxes for 10 years. Well, he was kind of wrong. Romney paid as close to zero as possible without actually being zero, not for 10 years, but for 15, using a loophole that was closed only shortly after he took advantage of it. > > Bloomberg broke the story a week ago. The mainstream media has ignored it. > > [Romney Avoids Taxes via Loophole Cutting Mormon Donations](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html) Unless I’m reading this wrong, it doesn’t say anything about Romney’s total federal income taxes-- only the amount he paid on that particular trust. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/68 "2012-11-05T20:46:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Then substitute “people” for voters. > > . _People who don’t vote aren’t people?_ Huh:confused: ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/69 "2012-11-05T20:50:38Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > but that is enough thread jacking, so I will shut up about the Mormon thing now. 😛 No problem - for what it’s worth, pretty much every Mormon I’ve met has been a fantastic, ethical and moral person. Romney seems to be the anomaly here. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/70 "2012-11-05T21:08:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No problem - for what it’s worth, pretty much every Mormon I’ve met has been a fantastic, ethical and moral person. Romney seems to be the anomaly here. One last thing on the hijack, if I may. Is it likely that someone from the church has read Romney’s tax returns to ensure that he was tithing 10%? I understand that it has to be verified to be in good standing as a member of LDS, and be granted a “[temple recommend](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_%28LDS_Church%29#Entrance_requirements)” to attend services. I have not seen last weekend’s _Melissa Harris-Perry_ show yet, but this seems like a story right up her alley, coming from a Mormon background. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/71 "2012-11-05T21:10:29Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Yet the polling this year says that the results may very well mirror [2004](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2004) where the incumbent who is less popular than Obama won 286-251 and carried the popular vote by less than 2.5%. > > This isn’t at least a little surprising to anyone? Obama is black, so no. I’m surprised that Obama has survived a term without being assassinated, much less that he appears likely to win re-election. > [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > Does it ever occur to Ds here that maybe the country actually is populated by a majority of people who agree with the R party? I agree that that is a repulsive idea, but it seems pretty obvious. This country \*\*re-\*\*elected GWB. Any possible issue breaks down at least 50/50. Face it, we are outnumbered by dumbshits. Virtually nothing will surprise you after that is understood. Disappointed, well yeah that’s still there. Obama’s first victory was the real surprise to me. A second will be a well-received shock. I’m an independent, not a Democrat but yes; most Americans are contemptible. Racist, ignorant, religious fanatics, greedy, sadistic, amoral. That is why Bush was re-elected, and has gone unpunished; he’s just stupider, richer version of the average American. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/72 "2012-11-05T21:13:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > So the eletion is close exclusively because GOP voters won’t decide to not vote for Romney; it has nothing to do with voters not being happy with Obama’s performance. > > Because how could _anybody_ not have wet drams about Obama? > > Got it. You can be as disappointed in Obama as you want, but to think that is reason enough to ever let Republicans back in power is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/73 "2012-11-05T21:14:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Unless I’m reading this wrong, it doesn’t say anything about Romney’s total federal income taxes-- only the amount he paid on that particular trust. The issue is about playing games with a religious obligation - roughly on par with punching a hole in a $20 and tying on some fishing line, all the better to jerk out back out after ostentatiously dropping it in the collection plate. The sort of man who would cheat at solitaire. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/74 "2012-11-05T21:19:50Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > One last thing on the hijack, if I may. > > Is it likely that someone from the church has read Romney’s tax returns to ensure that he was tithing 10%? I understand that it has to be verified to be in good standing as a member of LDS, and be granted a “[temple recommend](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_%28LDS_Church%29#Entrance_requirements)” to attend services. > > I have not seen last weekend’s _Melissa Harris-Perry_ show yet, but this seems like a story right up her alley, coming from a Mormon background. They go by your word in answers to several other questions about how you treat your fellow man, pay tithing, etc. It’s really your word. The Church has no right to review your tax records. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/75 "2012-11-05T21:41:51Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > They go by your word in answers to several other questions about how you treat your fellow man, pay tithing, etc. It’s really your word. The Church has no right to review your tax records. OK, didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/76 "2012-11-05T21:51:07Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > [16 Reasons Even Conservatives Should Vote For President Obama And Democrats](http://www.winningwordsproject.com/16_reasons_conservatives_should_vote_for_president_obama_and_democrats) > [@](#): > > Vote for President Obama and Democrats if you support the Constitution and everyone’s right to Free Speech. Obama’s the one fighting against the ruling that indefinite detention without trial is unconstitutional under the Sixth Amendment. And it’s his administration that [_exiled_ a USAF veteran for being Muslim.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/05/muslim-no-fly-qatar) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/77 "2012-11-05T22:01:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And it’s his administration that [_exiled_ a USAF veteran for being Muslim.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/05/muslim-no-fly-qatar) Was this [toddler](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57432009/report-toddler-appears-on-no-fly-list-booted/) a Muslim too? Oh wait, there is no indication that he is on the list because he is a Muslim. Your article doesn’t have a TSA representative saying anything along those lines. This is an example of how the No Fly list has some errors and should be looked into and revamped. But not an example of some anti-Muslim bias as you claim. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/78 "2012-11-05T22:23:54Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > The issue is about playing games with a religious obligation - roughly on par with punching a hole in a $20 and tying on some fishing line, all the better to jerk out back out after ostentatiously dropping it in the collection plate. The sort of man who would cheat at solitaire. No and no. The issue I was responding to was a statement that Romney paid zero or almost zero taxes for 15 years. I don’t think the link given supports that, but I’m open to correction if I’m wrong. As for taking advantage of the tax preference… there’s a Pit thread devoted to this topic and although it’s not getting much play, I said all I need to say there. I have no problem with someone using the tax code to the best of their advantage. I would do the same if presented with the opportunity. None of us knows what he uses to count his tithing, and I really don’t care about that either. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/79 "2012-11-06T00:19:53Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > If that is what they meant than I redact my statement. I did mean that mainstream Christians are biased against Mormons as belonging to a cult, though my own personal view is that all religion has cult-like features, so I find it ironic that Christians work up the nerve to accuse anyone of belonging to a cult, but they do. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956/80 "2012-11-06T00:38:18Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I did mean that mainstream Christians are biased against Mormons as belonging to a cult, though my own personal view is that all religion has cult-like features, so I find it ironic that Christians work up the nerve to accuse anyone of belonging to a cult, but they do. I totally agree. But isn’t hypocrisy and irony the mark of a lot of supposedly religious people? \*sorry, my cynical meter is on full blast today. \* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-admit-im-surprised-and-disappointed/639956.md?page=5)