# I Must Fire Three Long Time Employees This Week. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 13, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448 "2014-08-13T17:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/21 "2014-08-13T18:20:22Z")
There’s also a practice of not firing people on Friday. A firing on Monday lets them regroup and start making immediate calls, visits to unemployment, etc. - staying productive before numbness and anger set in. Letting someone stew all weekend before they can do anything else is a bad idea. Do it now, or tomorrow, or better yet, wait until Monday morning. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/22 "2014-08-13T18:26:14Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I suspect it is because they are older people and don’t like change. If you’re worried about an age discrimination lawsuit, this is something you really, really, _really_ don’t want to share. As a 54-year-old I’m pissed that you’re even thinking it. Have you seen the movie _Moneyball_? Remember the scene where the nerdy guy has to tell the players they’re traded? Let that be your guide–quick, impersonal, and painless. Emoting won’t help anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/23 "2014-08-13T18:33:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There’s also a practice of not firing people on Friday. A firing on Monday lets them regroup and start making immediate calls, visits to unemployment, etc. - staying productive before numbness and anger set in. Letting someone stew all weekend before they can do anything else is a bad idea. > > Do it now, or tomorrow, or better yet, wait until Monday morning. I heard the opposite - do it on Friday so it is less of a change to their routine, since ordinarily they would have Saturday and Sunday off anyway, and they can start the job search when they have had a couple of days to recover. It’s gonna suck either way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/24 "2014-08-13T18:36:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I heard the opposite - do it on Friday so it is less of a change to their routine, since ordinarily they would have Saturday and Sunday off anyway, and they can start the job search when they have had a couple of days to recover. > > It’s gonna suck either way. > > Regards, > Shodan For reasons I am not going to get into, it HAS to be this Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/25 "2014-08-13T18:39:07Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > For reasons I am not going to get into, it HAS to be this Friday. And so it goes. It’s certainly traditional and the trope about not doing it is probably as much wishy-washy feelgood as anything else. Sucks all around. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/26 "2014-08-13T18:45:57Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > They were also chosen because of complaints about their work “attitudes” and lack of willingness to learn our new software system. I personally asked their direct supervisors to make sure they learned it and they both always had excuses why it was not a good time to train. I suspect it is because they are older people and don’t like change. Unfortunately, if they had learned, they would be more valuable to me and I may have been able to make other choices on who to cut. I feel for you but you’re making the right choice. Back around twenty years ago when I was a young engineer, the company that I worked for had a big layoff in a different division. There was one guy in his early 50s who had been with the company for over twenty years and had been a manager for quite some time. He was offered a job as an engineer in my division. The years of being a manager made him totally useless. They tried and tried but he just couldn’t figure out how to use a computer or some of the relatively simple software programs that we had. He eventually had to be let go. That scared the crap out of me and I vowed to never be in the position. I’m a little younger now that he was then and I never pass up the opportunity to learn a new thing and stay current. Screw them if they didn’t want to be bothered to learn the new software. They had their chance. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/27 "2014-08-13T18:55:45Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Here’s a suggestion that is going way beyond the normal rules: > give the fired employees a phone number of somebody who might be interested in hiring them. > > Not officially, of course. > But as they leave your office, try doing something as a friend, not as their boss…and maybe it will ease your conscience. > Be vague, with no specific promise, and nothing in writing. Give them the phone number from memory, let them write it down on a scrap of paper, so it is not really “yours”. Just a hint that maybe things aren’t as bad as they seem, and there is a little bit of hope to grab onto. > > If you have any contacts in your business who you can call a day or two ahead, and suggest that maybe your ex-employees people might fit their organization, etc,etc., and may I suggest that they call your office? Be vague, offer nothing that will come back and bite you in the ass. > And check with your legal department too. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would you recommend someone you wouldn’t keep on yourself? That’s not helping your former employees. It’s fucking over the next poor sap who employs them. Don’t do that, our worst employee is a referral from a friend who thought he’d be a good fit for us. He’s a horrible sucky employee\*. It’s like setting your friend up on a blind date with someone you know they’re aren’t going to like. The only thing that you’re doing by giving the newly fired employee a phone number is attempting to make yourself feel better. Running a business involves firing people. It’s one of the downsides and as I like to say ‘it’s why you get paid the big bucks’. \*just leave it alone, I’ve no interesting in defending why he still works for us. It’s not up to me. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/28 "2014-08-13T19:37:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would you recommend someone you wouldn’t keep on yourself? That’s not helping your former employees. It’s fucking over the next poor sap who employs them. The phrase “someone else’s lemon” comes to mind. Maybe if you offer a referral to a competitor? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/29 "2014-08-13T19:40:28Z")
I once had to lay of six guys at the same time. Not fun. But what I have found is you do a termination like removing a band aid. Do it quickly. Here is what we are doing I’m sorry it’s not personal Sign here, here and here The best of luck ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/30 "2014-08-13T19:41:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This, +a whole lot. > > The reason you are letting them go as opposed to anyone else is, “Sorry.” As in - > > “We’re sorry, but we are letting you go. Today is going to be your last day. Here is your severance check, here is a box for the stuff from your desk, here is your COBRA information. If anyone asks, we will only tell them your start date, your end date, and your job title. Best of luck to you in the future.” > > “How can you fire me? I’ve been here ten years.” > > “Sorry.” > > “But why me?” > > “Sorry.” > > “Is it because I didn’t learn the new system? I can do better!” > > “Sorry.” > > “What can I do to change your mind?” > > “Sorry.” > > There is no way to make it easy, so just make it quick, and don’t try to let them down easy. It doesn’t help. > > Regards, > Shodan Yep, agree wholeheartedly. If I were feeling talkative, I might expand the repeated answer to “I’m sorry, but the decision has been made” ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/31 "2014-08-13T20:25:49Z")
An older woman who had been with this law firm for twenty years was let go recently under very similar circumstances. We had to change over to an entirely new cloud document control system, and it was a steep learning curve. She might have learned it had she made an effort, but she was more interested in griping loudly about the changeover. Well, she was no loss, because she was also the nasty office gossip and rumormonger. But I took the lesson to heart; I’m 57, but I’m damned well going to learn any new software that comes up. The only other secretary in my department is a couple of years older than me, and she’s definitely resistant to change and new technology. If anyone gets this department in their sights come layoff time, I’m not going to be the one they target! ETA: I guess I had better spend less time on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/32 "2014-08-13T20:33:49Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I once had to lay of six guys at the same time. Not fun. > But what I have found is you do a termination like removing a band aid. Do it quickly. > Here is what we are doing > I’m sorry it’s not personal > Sign here, here and here > The best of luck And do it somewhere they can have a little bit of privacy for a few minutes, if possible. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/33 "2014-08-13T20:47:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This, +a whole lot. > > The reason you are letting them go as opposed to anyone else is, “Sorry.” As in - > > “We’re sorry, but we are letting you go. Today is going to be your last day. Here is your severance check, here is a box for the stuff from your desk, here is your COBRA information. If anyone asks, we will only tell them your start date, your end date, and your job title. Best of luck to you in the future.” > > “How can you fire me? I’ve been here ten years.” > > “Sorry.” > > “But why me?” > > “Sorry.” > > “Is it because I didn’t learn the new system? I can do better!” > > “Sorry.” > > “What can I do to change your mind?” > > “Sorry.” > > There is no way to make it easy, so just make it quick, and don’t try to let them down easy. It doesn’t help. > > Regards, > Shodan I think I once had that conversation with a boyfriend I was dumping… Foxy - I’m sorry - and I DO feel for you. It isn’t about you - and at the same time - it sucks because you are a decent human being. My previous company would let you know layoffs were coming, and about the size a target date of them - that let people who suspected prepare, it let a few people just up and quit (and therefore gave us one less person to let go) and, while we couldn’t officially take volunteers, it did let word reach managers that “maybe Tom would like his 20 weeks severance - he’s wanted to move to Texas for a while - so if we have to choose being Tom and Tammy…” so some of the people let go weren’t exactly disappointed. But for the period in time when the decisions were being made and for weeks after it was communicated - management took it HARD. Yeah, it wasn’t easy to be let go - but it wasn’t easy on the other side of the desk either. I lost all respect at the next company I worked for where they let a bunch of people go and there WASN’T any sense of stress leading up to it, or afterwards. It was simply - with a smirk - “we had to make some changes.” I got no sense of previous sleepless nights or any care about what might happen to these lives. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/34 "2014-08-13T20:51:26Z")
Also, if it’s possible to give a little bit of warning (which may be impossible), things can go better. It doesn’t need to be that they are getting fired, but a heads up that something serious is going down given a day or two in advance can really help some people cope, compared to a bolt from the blue. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/35 "2014-08-13T20:58:10Z")
Do you have an HR department or know an HR person you can consult? Because the words “laid off” mean something different to me than “fired” with respect to filing for unemployment. My parents had union factory jobs back in the day and when production was slow, there would be layoffs. When production ramped back up, they’d get called back to work. Lay off means if business picks up, they are first on the re-hire list. Fired means there is no chance this employee will work with you again. Ever. And I don’t know this for sure, but there may be some unemployment benefits implications if the termination (there’s a terrible euphemism!) is laid off vs. fired. So I suggest checking with an HR-type who knows these things and get a handle on: the proper language to use and help giving advice to the employees regarding filing for unemployment (will HR provide any guidance or resources, assistance?). “Will I be eligible for unemployment?” is going to be one of the first questions. And the answer depends on if you are firing them or laying them off. If you tell me I’m laid off, then yes, I’d expect to be eligible. If you tell me I’m fired, I would expect your HR department to fight my unemployment claim, citing some for-cause reason I was fired. Better line up those ducks. You can be sued personally for mishandling this. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/36 "2014-08-13T21:04:13Z")
NM, Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/37 "2014-08-13T22:07:49Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I once had to lay of six guys at the same time… I knew a girl in college who once had to lay six guys at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/38 "2014-08-13T22:09:49Z")
It might be too late since it sounds like you’ve made your decision, but did you consider across-the-board pay cuts instead? E.g. instead of completely dumping three people, you could cut some salaries and/or reduce the number of hours that certain hourly workers are scheduled to work. Then, everyone suffers a little but nobody has to take the bomb in their lap. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/39 "2014-08-13T23:11:17Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It might be too late since it sounds like you’ve made your decision, but did you consider across-the-board pay cuts instead? E.g. instead of completely dumping three people, you could cut some salaries and/or reduce the number of hours that certain hourly workers are scheduled to work. Then, everyone suffers a little but nobody has to take the bomb in their lap. That is a great way to send morale straight into the shitter for everyone especially if the people truly aren’t needed. Increases in efficiency brought on by new technology really do shrink the demand for some kinds of human work - that is a major goal of it. The workers that embrace it can keep their jobs or maybe even improve their job and pay while those that can’t or won’t adapt have to be let go. It is just an effect of ever-increasing productivity gains. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/40 "2014-08-13T23:21:35Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It might be too late since it sounds like you’ve made your decision, but did you consider across-the-board pay cuts instead? E.g. instead of completely dumping three people, you could cut some salaries and/or reduce the number of hours that certain hourly workers are scheduled to work. Then, everyone suffers a little but nobody has to take the bomb in their lap. IMO, not a good morale move for the better employees to be told “hey, we’re going to cut your pay so we can keep the deadweight around”. Great reward for those who actually learned the software, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448.md?page=3)