# I Must Fire Three Long Time Employees This Week. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 13, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448 "2014-08-13T17:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/61 "2014-08-14T19:32:04Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Why the heck should it be kept secret from the employee what they have done that led to the firing? In the case of lay offs or “downsizing” one, as a manager, does not want to get into a performance discussion because it ususally leads to argument and bogging down in minutia. It’s not going to change the outcome, so don’t go there. > [@Foxy40](#): > > I feel like it would be kicking them when they are down. I don’t have a paper trail to prevent an unemployment claim and wouldn’t do that anyway. “I have to let you go due to lack of volume in your field,” is a lot nicer than “I have to let you go because your work ethic and initiative sucks and you are a drain on the company.” If it is truly a performance issue then you, their direct supervisor or both handled the situation poorly. There should have been a paper trail of performance discussions, not so much to counter unemployment claims as to help the person know where they stand and hopefully improve. Once it gets to the point of firing, no one should be surprised. > [@Foxy40](#): > > However, when I needed to investigate specifics of one woman’s job description to make sure I had people qualified to pick up the slack, I got an unexpected earful of bitterness and resentment. Hold on a minute, in the OP you said that these people were “long time employees”, but you didn’t know the specifics about what this woman did every day? That explains part of the problem. A manager should know what their direct reports are doing day-to-day, what skill sets are involved and what would be required to replace them if they leave. I’m not talking about micromanagement, but succession planning. If this woman had quit with little or no notice (the reverse of what you’re doing to her, BTW), you would have potentially been up the creek without a paddle. I’m not trying to make you feel worse, I know firing/laying off people is a sucky part of the job. I’m just pointing out that there are expectations on BOTH sides. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/62 "2014-08-14T19:42:57Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Hold on a minute, in the OP you said that these people were “long time employees”, but you didn’t know the specifics about what this woman did every day? That explains part of the problem. A manager should know what their direct reports are doing day-to-day, what skill sets are involved and what would be required to replace them if they leave. I’m not talking about micromanagement, but succession planning. If this woman had quit with little or no notice (the reverse of what you’re doing to her, BTW), you would have potentially been up the creek without a paddle. > > I’m not trying to make you feel worse, I know firing/laying off people is a sucky part of the job. I’m just pointing out that there are expectations on BOTH sides. You are right that I should have known the resentment was worse than I thought over the fact that she had less to do than the others and was unwilling to pitch in despite her being extremely overqualified. Her direct supervisor did have a counseling session with her as I mentioned above to contribute more towards clinic and triage and I was unaware until recently that she did not follow through nor did her supervisor. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/63 "2014-08-15T12:55:14Z")
It’s done. They were very professional about it after the initial shock. I even got hugs. I NEVER want to have to do this again. ---
**Author:** ![janis\_and\_c0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janis_and_c0/32/21_2.png) [@janis\_and\_c0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janis_and_c0)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/64 "2014-08-15T14:06:32Z")
I’m glad it went as smoothly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/65 "2014-08-15T16:01:38Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > It’s done. They were very professional about it after the initial shock. I even got hugs. I NEVER want to have to do this again. Was this the first time you’ve ever had to fire someone? I’m really surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/66 "2014-08-15T16:09:39Z")
If you drink, when you get home, pour yourself a glass of wine, watch a movie, and give yourself some decompression time. Or go hang with friends - do whatever gives YOU some positive energy and de-stresses you. You’ve had a hard day. Yes, perhaps the people you let go had harder days, and if they post here, I’ll give them some sympathy too, but they don’t. And remember, you did this for the health of your company as a whole - you can’t employ anyone without being a profitable company for very long. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/67 "2014-08-15T16:10:59Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > **The bottom line is the company is slow and I can’t afford to pay them anymore**. Two of the three have been with me over ten years. They were chosen to be cut because their positions and responsibilities are so little at this point that they are able to be picked up by others. They were also chosen because of complaints about their work “attitudes” and lack of willingness to learn our new software system. **I personally asked their direct supervisors to make sure they learned it** and they both always had excuses why it was not a good time to train. **I suspect it is because they are older people** and don’t like change. Unfortunately, **if they had learned, they would be more valuable to me and I may have been able to make other choices** on who to cut. Either way, the decisions have been made. I have no intention of mentioning any reasons as to why this was partially their fault but will focus on the economic issue causing the cut backs. Bolding mine So because the company is going through a slow time you have to cut some employees and you opt to turf long-term employees on the grounds that you can’t afford them, they didn’t learn the new software and their duties can be picked up by others. So much for the intrinsic value of loyalty. If you have instructed their supervisions to ensure they learn this and they haven’t then that is on the supervisors who failed in their assigned duties. If it is because their duties can be “picked up” by others then it is on you and/or the supervisors for not expanding their duties in order to justify their pay - as you are about to do to the other people who will pick up the slack. If, as I suspect, it is because they are long-term “older” employees with the accrued benefits etc. that implies and you are turfing them before they can retire and reap the full rewards of their service to you then cry me a conscienceless river. You are canning them for no reason other than coupon-clipping. No matter how you gussy it up you are, most likely, sending these people into permanent unemployment based on mismanagement and newer employees being cheaper and more willing to have extra duties foisted upon them. That being said, I disagree with the poster(s) who have said to avoid the term lay-off as it implies a temporary situation - it doesn’t necessarily. I’ve known a number of people (myself included) who have been permanently laid-off. Do them a favour and put it down as a lay-off so they can at least get unemployment. I would also suggest that you stay far away from mentioning their age. It could, at least in Canada, open you up to a human rights complaint. Lastly, if your problem is with their performance/unwillingness to learn then at least give them the courtesy of being honest with them and not hiding behind the “it’s not personal it’s a business decision” bullshit. I fully expect to get slammed for having said this and I accept that. Zeke ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/68 "2014-08-15T16:32:21Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I fully expect to get slammed for having said this and I accept that. Your points have already been discussed upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/69 "2014-08-15T17:07:10Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > …she was asked to assist with patient triage when she wasn’t busy which she did for a day or two and then decided it “wasn’t her job”. Her degree is not in nursing but she was asked to assist the nurses when they got in the weeds… So you asked her do perform duties for which she was not qualified and had potential health implications for your patients and she refused after giving it a go. Yup, that sounds like an unreasonable employee. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/70 "2014-08-15T17:13:16Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > Which is why she doesn’t get the severance unless she signs a general release form. If I have to pay her severance on litigation fees, that will be her choice. Nice, implicitly admit that you are doing this for no good reason and then hold her over the barrel. Surely if she was such a shitty employee there would be mention in her file, reprimands etc. Or was management just to lazy to bother with quality control on employees - until money came into it. I sure hope that at least one of your victims knows you’re on the 'Dope and your handle. It will make life so much easier for them. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/71 "2014-08-15T17:15:45Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > Nice, implicitly admit that you are doing this for no good reason and then hold her over the barrel. It’s fairly amusing to watch you go from post to post, trying to gin up as much froth as you can with each one. I imagine you’ll read this after you’ve replied, and replied, and replied, and… ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/72 "2014-08-15T17:18:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Was this the first time you’ve ever had to fire someone? I’m really surprised. I’ve had to let go of countless people for cause throughout the years. Not one had put in the years these people have. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/73 "2014-08-15T17:22:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s fairly amusing to watch you go from post to post, trying to gin up as much froth as you can with each one. I imagine you’ll read this after you’ve replied, and replied, and replied, and… No froth. And you’re right, I didn’t read the full thread before my first response. I’m not the first and certainly won’t be the last - mea culpa. It just sounds to me like afterthought justifications for turfing previously acceptable employees based on nothing more than them being more expensive - both now and in the future - than newer more exploitable employees. I make no apologies, but I’m certainly no Marat. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/74 "2014-08-15T17:23:44Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I’ve had to let go of countless people for cause throughout the years. Not one had put in the years these people have. Got it. Well, I’m glad both sides handled themselves well. I once had to lay off someone who basically got hysterical. That was not fun. We also had a guy get fired for cause who then told a supervisor he was going home for his gun. That was also not fun. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/75 "2014-08-15T17:26:01Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > So you asked her do perform duties for which she was not qualified and had potential health implications for your patients and she refused after giving it a go. Yup, that sounds like an unreasonable employee. I can tell you exactly what she was asked to do. She is a MRI tech. When she wasn’t doing MRIs she was asked to assist taking histories and entering them in the computer which she refused to learn. (the computer not taking histories) It is essentially copying from a piece of paper that requires no medical training whatsoever. She was also asked to prepare people for their tests by directing them to a changing room and giving them the garments. After a radiologist reads the test and generates a report, she was asked to scan the report into the new medical records system. No health risks to my patients at all. Just an employee who had too much time on her hands and refused to assist others who were swamped. But again, this is NOT why she was let go. If we were as profitable as we’ve been in the past, we would have continued her employment. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/76 "2014-08-15T17:26:08Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > No froth. And you’re right, I didn’t read the full thread before my first response. I’m not the first and certainly won’t be the last - mea culpa. > > It just sounds to me like afterthought justifications for turfing previously acceptable employees based on nothing more than them being more expensive - both now and in the future - than newer more exploitable employees. > > I make no apologies, but I’m certainly no Marat. Okay, so are you accepting that her company needed to fire people for lack of work? If so, would you be defending anyone selected, or is there something about these people specifically you feel needs a defense? ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/77 "2014-08-15T17:31:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Got it. Well, I’m glad both sides handled themselves well. I once had to lay off someone who basically got hysterical. That was not fun. > > We also had a guy get fired for cause who then told a supervisor he was going home for his gun. That was also not fun. We really are like a family here which is why is was so tough. Ultimately, we had to weigh whether we could continue having someone who is a luxury. As Zeke said, he hopes she finds this thread. I would have no problem with it because although I think she sensed we are torn up over it, she would know for sure that I asked virtual strangers how to make the process less painful and received some excellent advice. Honestly, I thank so many of you because I indeed pulled from this thread during the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/78 "2014-08-15T17:42:20Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I can tell you exactly what she was asked to do. She is a MRI tech. When she wasn’t doing MRIs she was asked to assist taking histories and entering them in the computer which she refused to learn. (the computer not taking histories) It is essentially copying from a piece of paper that requires no medical training whatsoever. She was also asked to prepare people for their tests by directing them to a changing room and giving them the garments. After a radiologist reads the test and generates a report, she was asked to scan the report into the new medical records system. No health risks to my patients at all. Just an employee who had too much time on her hands and refused to assist others who were swamped. But again, this is NOT why she was let go. If we were as profitable as we’ve been in the past, we would have continued her employment. Okay, with further details supplied I can see the reason. Again though it seems more like a problem with management not correcting behaviour or firing based on it. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, so are you accepting that her company needed to fire people for lack of work? > > If so, would you be defending anyone selected, or is there something about these people specifically you feel needs a defense? I accept that sometimes the workforce needs to be pared down certainly. But I believe it should be closer to “last hired first fired” vs “we don’t want to be on the hook for pensions etc.” The fact that at least one of these people was such a, purportedly, terrible employee - who was never disciplined or complained about - needs to be canned now tells me that this is about severing non-management heads to cut costs as opposed to an actual attempt to increase productivity and efficiency. As I said, it sounds to me like afterthought justifications. If management was so lax as to allow this to carry on with their knowledge then mayhaps it is management (be it frontline or higher) who are not earning their pay and should be considered for the block. As a direct answer to your direct question, no this is not defense for the sake of defense. I understand that cuts must sometimes be made. This one just seems to me to be unfair, unreasonable and born of managerial self-interest. As I’ve said, I’ve been laid off a number of times (both permanent and temporary) and harboured no animosity towards the company. I spent eight years as an officer of my local union and saw many lay-offs and terminations. Those that were justified and fair I never contested. Those that were based on pretext I did. This strikes me as the latter. Zeke ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/79 "2014-08-15T18:28:44Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I accept that sometimes the workforce needs to be pared down certainly. But I believe it should be closer to “last hired first fired” vs “we don’t want to be on the hook for pensions etc.” How many places even offer pensions? Why are you assuming it costs the company more to keep these people on as opposed to other employees? Is it in the thread? (It may be. I can’t claim to have read every post diligently.) To me, axing the newer employees when earlier employees do a worse job is foolish. If everyone is equal, maybe you go for the more recent hire, but if things are not equal, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/80 "2014-08-15T18:45:11Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > …But I believe it should be closer to “last hired first fired” vs “we don’t want to be on the hook for pensions etc.” > > The fact that at least one of these people was such a, purportedly, terrible employee - who was never disciplined or complained about - needs to be canned now tells me that this is about severing non-management heads to cut costs as opposed to an actual attempt to increase productivity and efficiency. First of all, you are the only one who mentioned anything about pensions. **Foxy40** spoke about eliminating employees who would not learn new skills. They happened to be long term employees who she knew well. From what I read of the thread, if these folks were younger, less tenured employees they still would have gotten the axe. Secondly, “FIFO” is no way to run an efficient organization. An efficient company will (and should) keep the people that give it the highest ROI, regardless of tenure. The reality is that there is no “intrinsic value of loyalty”. Showing up and doing a marginal job for years does not make you more valuable to the company. Indeed, I would argue the reverse. Look, I took **Foxy40** to task for some of the same things you did based on information she gave, but you went way overboard in assuming “facts” never brought into evidence. Don’t assign motives where they don’t exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448.md?page=5)