# I Must Fire Three Long Time Employees This Week. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 13, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448 "2014-08-13T17:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/81 "2014-08-16T02:42:05Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > I can tell you exactly what she was asked to do. She is a MRI tech. When she wasn’t doing MRIs she was asked to assist taking histories and entering them in the computer which she refused to learn. (the computer not taking histories) It is essentially copying from a piece of paper that requires no medical training whatsoever. She was also asked to prepare people for their tests by directing them to a changing room and giving them the garments. After a radiologist reads the test and generates a report, she was asked to scan the report into the new medical records system. No health risks to my patients at all. Just an employee who had too much time on her hands and refused to assist others who were swamped. But again, this is NOT why she was let go. If we were as profitable as we’ve been in the past, we would have continued her employment. Why would you keep her if she did not perform requested work, no matter how profitable the company is? When I’ve had employees who refused to do requested work, s/he would be counseled (“some areas are overwhelmed and we’re a team”, speech along with “do you need additional training?”), then counseled/reprimanded (“we’ve discussed the need to do x,y, and z before. I haven’t seen any improvement, so here’s an outline of expectations and we’ll talk in 90 days”). Paper trail. And then if no improvement, she would have been terminated. But no matter what you call it, firing, layoff, whatever. It still sucks. Glad it went as well as these things can. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/82 "2014-08-16T10:40:03Z")
I said “pensions etc” the _etc_ was meant to include things like extra vacation time and other benefits typically accrued over time. That and the OP said they were “older” which lead me to think that soon-to-be retirement - and therefore pensions - was a consideration. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/83 "2014-08-16T15:02:26Z")
The OP also made it sound like the reason they were paid more was because they’ve been working there longer. That alone is enough for Zeke’s implications. I personally make no judgment on the employer, but I do at least see the implication. I have known places that fire the workers who have been their the longest because they are paid the most. But I also know plenty of places where there are older people who do less work and refuse to learn new software that wind up getting canned. It’s common practice to keep those people around when you are doing well but lay them off when you aren’t. People like to stick with the workers they know if they can. The latter situation happened at my sister’s job. They started by letting the woman do part time work, but eventually had to let her go. I will admit it sucks that you can’t tell them why they were let go over others, though. I still wonder if that woman my sister works with knows why she was let go. I bet she thinks it’s age discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/84 "2014-08-16T15:19:19Z")
So… how’d it go? ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/85 "2014-08-16T17:02:15Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > When I was laid off a few years ago, I was in the US on an E3 visa, which was tied to my employment. Basically, I had 10 days notice to leave the country. My employer gave me 2 weeks’ salary as severance. It only occurred to me later that they could have offered me a month at half-time to allow me to get my affairs in order for the same cost. > > Ever planned a wedding in 10 days? I have. Did that include finding a spouse? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/86 "2014-08-16T19:07:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So… how’d it go? [Fairly smoothly, all things considered.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17641239&postcount=63) ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/87 "2014-08-16T19:58:33Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Secondly, “FIFO” is no way to run an efficient organization. An efficient company will (and should) keep the people that give it the highest ROI, regardless of tenure. The reality is that there is no “intrinsic value of loyalty”. Showing up and doing a marginal job for years does not make you more valuable to the company. Indeed, I would argue the reverse. I was a civilian Federal employee for 26 years. Twice the commands where I worked did a RIF (Reduction-In-Force) for reasons way above my paygrade. Each time, very VERY talented younger employees were let go because employees with tenure got priority that weighed more heavily than their performance. Sometimes, folks who have been around a long time are real assets. Sometimes, they’re just coasting on seniority. Sometimes, the problem is a supervisor who can’t be bothered to counsel a poor performer and document everything. In 26 years, I personally knew only 1 engineer fired, and even he was kept on way too long. All other things being equal, seniority is a trump card, but when the old guy who refuses to use the computer is kept on while the younger guy who works his ass off gets let go, seniority has little value. And I say this as a senior engineer who retired during the last RIF in the hopes that one of the younger engineers would be kept. FIFO sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/88 "2014-08-16T20:59:07Z")
Itym lifo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/89 "2014-08-16T21:09:33Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > I was a civilian Federal employee for 26 years. Twice the commands where I worked did a RIF (Reduction-In-Force) for reasons way above my paygrade. Each time, very VERY talented younger employees were let go because employees with tenure got priority that weighed more heavily than their performance. > > Sometimes, folks who have been around a long time are real assets. Sometimes, they’re just coasting on seniority. Sometimes, the problem is a supervisor who can’t be bothered to counsel a poor performer and document everything. In 26 years, I personally knew only 1 engineer fired, and even he was kept on way too long. > > All other things being equal, seniority is a trump card, but when the old guy who refuses to use the computer is kept on while the younger guy who works his ass off gets let go, seniority has little value. And I say this as a senior engineer who retired during the last RIF in the hopes that one of the younger engineers would be kept. FIFO sucks. And it sucks in a number of ways - I worked for a while as a contractor for a union shop - they really, really wanted to bring me on as an employee, but I would have had to join the union. Which meant that my pay would be scaled off seniority and I’d be subject to seniority RIFs. Plus, part of my salary would go to union dues to maintain this precious state of affairs. In other words, its hard to get a talented person to join an organization if they are going to be treated based off something other than talent. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/90 "2014-08-18T14:08:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The OP also made it sound like the reason they were paid more was because they’ve been working there longer. That alone is enough for Zeke’s implications. Not really, one can not even assume a pension as a benefit any more. Many comapanies no longer offer pensions of any kind, employees must plan their own retirement via 401k or other option. In any case, if the RIF had been OK’d by the lawyers (and I think **Foxy** said they were), then my assumption is that pension savings weren’t the main reason. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/91 "2014-08-18T14:31:10Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Not really, one can not even assume a pension as a benefit any more. Many comapanies no longer offer pensions of any kind, employees must plan their own retirement via 401k or other option. In any case, if the RIF had been OK’d by the lawyers (and I think **Foxy** said they were), then my assumption is that pension savings weren’t the main reason. They have profit sharing and 401Ks that aren’t influenced in anyway by the termination. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/92 "2014-08-18T15:09:13Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And it sucks in a number of ways - I worked for a while as a contractor for a union shop - they really, really wanted to bring me on as an employee, but I would have had to join the union. Which meant that my pay would be scaled off seniority and I’d be subject to seniority RIFs. Plus, part of my salary would go to union dues to maintain this precious state of affairs. In other words, its hard to get a talented person to join an organization if they are going to be treated based off something other than talent. You do realize that unions (and seniority, to some extent) also protect workers, right? Not every organization, and especially not every manager, base things purely on talent. I’ve been RIFed, and I was chosen not on talent, but because the other guy’s dad played golf with the boss. This is a fact–all parties admitted it. I was more talented, I had more seniority, but I was under an at will work arrangement. If it were a union shop, I wouldn’t have been the one that was RIFed, and I wouldn’t have had to find a new job. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/93 "2014-08-18T15:33:56Z")
> [@PorchePine](#): > > You do realize that unions (and seniority, to some extent) also protect workers, right? Not every organization, and especially not every manager, base things purely on talent. I’ve been RIFed, and I was chosen not on talent, but because the other guy’s dad played golf with the boss. This is a fact–all parties admitted it. I was more talented, I had more seniority, but I was under an at will work arrangement. If it were a union shop, I wouldn’t have been the one that was RIFed, and I wouldn’t have had to find a new job. Ideally, yes, but its a bad deal for talented people who work in in demand fields - FairyChatMom was an engineer and I’m an IT Project Manager. Because if our management treats us poorly, we can go somewhere else. As a talented person, you probably got laid off, and ended up in a job you liked better, maybe even paid more, with less douchey management. It can also be a bad deal for the workforce at a company as a whole. I have a friend who managed to unionize his shop - got everyone a raise (yeah!) that was eaten - and then some - by union dues (boo!) and the cost difference in giving everyone a raise meant that they were undercut on the next bid cycle (government contracts) and the company closed down - so everyone needed a new job. You add overhead to the cost structure when you insert a union, that might be good or might not be good for the individuals (since dues come out of their salaries) - its unlikely to be good for the company. If the company is in a highly competitive field, that won’t be good for the employees if it isn’t good for the company. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448/94 "2014-08-18T15:59:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Ideally, yes, but its a bad deal for talented people who work in in demand fields - FairyChatMom was an engineer and I’m an IT Project Manager. Because if our management treats us poorly, we can go somewhere else. As a talented person, you probably got laid off, and ended up in a job you liked better, maybe even paid more, with less douchey management. > > It can also be a bad deal for the workforce at a company as a whole. I have a friend who managed to unionize his shop - got everyone a raise (yeah!) that was eaten - and then some - by union dues (boo!) and the cost difference in giving everyone a raise meant that they were undercut on the next bid cycle (government contracts) and the company closed down - so everyone needed a new job. You add overhead to the cost structure when you insert a union, that might be good or might not be good for the individuals (since dues come out of their salaries) - its unlikely to be good for the company. If the company is in a highly competitive field, that won’t be good for the employees if it isn’t good for the company. I did get laid off, and hired in a better position at a better company, in the field that I actually have my degree in. (I was in a similar field.) I have to deal with union stuff every day–I’m in a mid-level supervisory position–and it’s a friggin headache. I’m not in the union, but my underlings are. (Well the underlings of my underlings…) It just irks me when people dismiss unions as 100% evil, which is what I interpreted your statements as. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-must-fire-three-long-time-employees-this-week/695448.md?page=4)