I must say I adhere to this definition of liberal.

“It” is not “the State” but the action you described: redistributing based on merit. To do this there needs to be a standard of merit. This standard is subjective. Hence, the state imposes an objective standard in place of a subjective one.

Necessity is that which is biologically required. Air has no subjective value: we all need it, period. Now, one might say that this makes it have an objective value—I don’t care either way. The context of necessity is “acquire or die.” Shelter, clothing, food, water, and air are good examples. There is, of course, no pure necessity because there are alternatives. If I can’t eat an apple I might eat a pear, some air is cleaner than others, and so on. So even here there is some room for subjective value, but there is no question that this good must be available. Its necessity is determined by our very nature. There is no escape from it, there is no “do without.” Contrast this to cigarettes, automobiles, or paper clips, all of which can basically be done without in the short or long term; resources may be diverted away from these goods. It is possible to choose to do without some goods, but not others. In some sense this is an objective value, in others its value is infinite, in others it is a prerequisite for ascribing value in the first place and so has no value. Choose your poison. I’m easy.

Assume an set of available choices {C}. Assume a set of agents ascribing value {A}. Value is ascribed by the ordering of {C} by each member of {A}. By “the market can handle all possible preferences” I mean to indicate that the market can handle any ordering of {C} for each agent {A}. All permutations are permissible. By " the market will promote that which everyone wants" I mean to indicate that if every agent {A} orders {C} such that some choice x in {C} is always ranked above some choice y in {C} that the market will encourage/promote/etc x over y. The final note, which you didn’t ask for clarification on but I will anyway, is “if aggregate preferences do not change then neither will aggregate valuations.” I mean that if in one permutation the ranking in {C} goes {…, x, z, y, …} and in another permutation the ranking in {C} goes {…, x, y, z, …} (that is, x is still highest but other choices below it have changed) then the market will still select/promote/etc x. Assuming these three conditions there will always exist someone in {A} who can dictate what happens overall. There is no fair method of responding to a system of preferences. In voting, this simply means that preference voting has intrinsic flaws. In a market context, it means that either there will be a controlling force in the economy, or one of the three conditions must fail to apply—in either case, the market cannot be fair (if we assume this is a good standard of fairness).

The problem goes very deep. If we assume, for example, that each individual should, at the very least, have the decisive say over at least one choice, we will still end up in a situation where one of our three requirements fail (actually, the one which says that if everyone prefers x to y then x should be chosen). So much for pure voluntary action!

The problem, of course, is that the choices and the agents are not seperate. Each (or most anyway) of the choices has to be provided by one (or several) of the actors. As in the labor of {…A1…}, the goods of {…A2…} etc.

In addition, I’m not at all sure what you mean by standard of fairness as it applies to your thesis. You stated that “the market cannot be fair”, but I’m not sure you gave a standard at all. Do you mean that if the three conditions are met, or did I miss it?

I’m also confused as to what you mean by “each individual should have the decisive say of on choice”. What exactly do you mean by this?

Lastley, I don’t see how any of this applies to voluntary action at all.

You are essentially saying that if people are free to value and trade some people will not get what they want. How does that invalidate voluntary actions?

Agents and choices are seperate. That’s aggregate demand as a function of subjective valuation. We all choose how much we are willing to pay for goods and services. Some of us will not be able to afford it, but that does not mean we do not value it or want it. Whether or not I could buy a Lexus does not change the fact that I assign a subjective value to it.

Yes, I mean if the three standards are met. One, that we can all assign value how we like; I trust you wouldn’t argue here, after all, that’s what voluntary choice is all about. Two, if we all value something higher than other things, that thing will have a higher value/be selected/promoted/produced/etc.; I assume this should follow your views naturally. Three, that the value of one good is independent of the value of other goods (not the supply!); what I mean here is that whether you value pizzas over video games while I value video games over pizzas, if we both value cars more than our attentions/resources/etc should be aligned that way.

Assume at a minimum that there is at least one choice each person can make free from coercion.

I assume you don’t include the choice of value ordering in this? That is, you mean that each person should be able to have 1 of the choices? I’m still not sure about this one. I’m probably wooshing something here. Does this 1 thing have anything to do with its order in that persons value list?

Just to be clear, you mean that if those three standards are met, then the system is fair, yes?

When you say that values are independent, do you mean that persons A values are independant from person B? Or do you mean the the values person A assigns to x and y have to be independant? (I assume the first)

I’m not sure I understand the second criteria. Do you mean that we are aggregating value? IOW if we all value a thing higher than others, then that thing has a higher value? Or do you mean that if we all value a thing more than another, then that thing will be produced more than the other? I’m not sure these are the same thing. It depends on the order, of course, but it seems to me that if someone does not value the thing in question lower than every one else (especially lower than the thing everyone else is willing to trade for it) it will not be produced. For example, if we all unanimously agree on the highest thing, who would be willing to put it up for sale?

I’m not sure that question is clear. Let me reference your variables from the previous post. If we all agree that x is more valuable than y, the no one will be willing to exchange x for y. As long as there is another value z which a possessor of x values higher than x and a purchaser of x values lower than x, trade is possible. If the purchaser and seller both agree that z is more valued than x, however, neither party will be willing to trade.

This is what I mean by not being able to seperate choices from agents. The aggregate value of a choice is irrelevant. The only values which matter are the ones made by the purchaser and seller. The whole point being that we do not have a seperate set of choices out there in the world somewhere independant of agents. There are not a set of cars, pizzas, and video games out there waiting for us to value them and compete to get them. There are only agents who have (or know how to get or make) pizzas, video games, and cars.

Are you saying that if everybody values x higher than y and x is not produced more often than y, that the agents have been denied voluntary choice? I’m not claiming that you are saying this, I am struggling to understand how your model can result in the conclusion “So much for pure voluntary action!”.

Does your second requirement for fairness require any sort of amount to be produced? If we all value x more than y, then if x is produced more that is still fair, yes? Or do we have to produce enough x that everyone who want sone can have one?

erislover writes:

This puzzles me. How can a standard of (moral) merit be objective? I suppose in some limited non-moral contexts we could have objective standards of merit. Like who can run the fastest 100m dash.

You seem to be implying that the state declaring something to be valuable makes it objectively valuable rather than just subjectively so. But what if the US and Uganda declare different things valuable?

Are you both a moral realist and a cultural relativist? I myself am a moral skeptic, so maybe that’s where we’re not seeing eye to eye. For instance, when you say:

It seems to me that ‘value is infinite’ for something like food (or nearly so for most people, but not so at all for people on a hunger strike or who wish to euthanize themselves) is clearly the right way to think about this. And even here, one can imagine a variety of diets with different sensual and health consequences. A person can live for a long time on a diet lacking certain vitamins, or a diet that is calorically restricted. Or a person can eat a healthy diet which is dull, etc.

I’ll have to read over your explanation/example of equilibrium (or lack thereof) when my brain is more coherent. At present though, I think I’d take something of the same tack as pervert seems to have hinted at.

Suppose there are two groups of agents. A1s and A2s. Each A1 has two non-divisible sandwiches, each A2 has two non-divisible sodas. Our preference ordering is (2,0)=(0,2)<(1,1).
Suppose n A1s and n+1 A2s.
The last A2 is SOL, since all the A1s have already found a trade partner.
Are you wanting to claim that because the last A2 can’t find a trade partner, he has been coerced? Calling it coercion would seem to be a gross abuse of language. Or that his non-trading is non-voluntary?
But there are lots of circumstances where people are in situations that they consider second-best, where they’d prefer that other people would act differently. I’d prefer it if everyone in the US gave me $100. Would you want to call my not having billions of dollars non-voluntary?

Another question about factor 3. What does the independance of values have to do with fairness? What would be unfair about {I’m not even sure how to phrase the opposite or negative of this rule}? Is this rule simply a restatement of the second rule? Namely that the market should foculs more on those values that more people value higher than others.

Also, what do we do in the case that most people favor x over y while a minority disagree? Is your model then by definition fair for the majority but unfair for the minority?

erislover’s independence

seems to be ruling out complementary goods, if I’m interpreting it right. I don’t see why that would be important.

What would be important to rule out, I’d think, would be transpersonal interdependence of preferences.

It is not a matter of trade. No goods are exchanged. The question is one of selecting an aggregate value based on subjective preferences.

We have three choices, x, y, and z. There are two agents, A and B. A’s preferences are {x, y, z} and B’s preferences are {x, z, y}. These are the subjective (relative) values placed. Both parties prefer x to either y or z. Therefore that we promote x should not be based on the relative ordering of things valued less than it.

Hayek

I thought we just went over this. Coercion. Whenever subjective value does not set the price of goods, the reward of work, and so on. Minimum wage is an example of the objective value of [some] labor. I am not saying that there is some method of evaluation divined from the reading of tea leaves. I am simply saying the value is fixed independent of subjective evaluations.

I don’t think answering that would help illuminate our problem. But no, I am neither. You indicate:

We are shifting contexts rapidly. The value of something is objective if its price is fixed by a coercive party, that is all I am saying. Subjective valuations in the form of preferences still operate. We have simply removed demand from the price equation, making it impervious to subjective valuation. Rent control, minimum wage, confiscatory tax rate (100%) setting income ceilings, refusal to sell a good at all (infinite price), and so on. All these become objective because they no longer take into account demand, which is the result of aggregate subjective valuation. If we remove the subjective component from price, what is left but objectivity?

Subjectively, the value of a good or service is how it ranks relative to other desired goods or services. Aggregately, the value of a good is its price: money is objective value (even if what we do with that money is based on subjective values). We want aggregate value to accurately reflect subjective values where agreement exists if the market is to be fair. We indicate this condition by requiring that anyone can like things however they want (freedom of choice), that if everyone prefers one product to another that this will be reflected in our methodology (who gets elected, what the price is, etc for whatever context we’re in), and that our methodology doesn’t care what the relative preferential orderings are beneath the preference level of the product in question. The third one has various interpretations. I’ve tried to elaborate them by example but I am running out of ways to present it. All it says is that so long as we both agree that cars are more valuable than pizzas and video games, cars should be [priced/produced/whatever selection criteria we’re using] irrespective of the [whatever] of the other two, so that your preference for pizza over video games doesn’t ruin our agreement on automobiles.

Not at all. What is actually produced numerically is a function of various opportunity costs. All that is important is that resources are directed towards agreement on relative value irrespective of the relative value of other goods beneath it. We all want automobiles more than pizza, so why would we direct more resources to pizza than automobiles? If we do, are we still being fair or are we favoring pizza producers at the expense of aggregate preference?

OK, but I think you are talking about trade. What do you mean by produce? What do you mean by “we promote”? You mean build. You mean labor and invest in. And who invests or labors except some of the agents. You see, you cannot remove the agents from the production side of the equation. You need another set of variables to represent the choices that agents are willing to distribute to others.

Without this, all you have is a very nice mathematical way to say that people should bet what they want. It contains no information about how they get these things or where they come from. And without this, it amounts to a very obfuscated excuse for slavery. You assume that current resources are “collective property”. You assume that “aggregate values” should take precidence over “individual (subjective is the word you used) values” even in the instances of individual resources. Given that individual resources includes labor, you have a lovely rationalization for slavery.

For instance:

We might direct more resources to pizza if the resources in question are those of the pizza producers. If they prefer making pizzas to making cars, why would we force them to make cars? (leaving aside the “people should get what they want” argument).

Perhaps you were right. We may not be able to make much more progress.

I’d like to add one more comment. If we limit the context of this method ot public goods, or limit the agents to those who have a claim on the resources in question, then this might be a good (although unnecessarily complex) way to decide how to develope those resoruces.

So, if we have a public space, then voting on how to develop it might seem reasonable. I’m not sure we have to create preference matrices to determine this, but I agree that it works.

As I indicated, however, I don’t see any value in applying this analysis to society in general. It boils down to the useless platitude “we should get what we want”.

Forget engineering an economy, even that isn’t the point. It doesn’t matter whether we’re intentionally trying to build a selection system or not: there is no system that can exist that will accurately represent preferences. This could be pricing, this could be what we produce (how many resources we devote to a task), it could be who we elect… it doesn’t matter. There are either guaranteed ways to “cheat”, or there are dictators (the result derived from Arrow’s theorem says that a process is strategy-proof if and only if it has a dictator).

Create goods from resources: land, labor, capital, and entrepreneurial ability.

I do not desire to. In fact, the whole point of welfare is that agents do not leave the equation.

Suppose we have a business cycle, and right now we are in a downswing. That means employement is down. Now suppose we have an entrepreneur who has a great new idea. To impliment this idea he needs workers. Workers will not be available if they die because there was no economic floor for them in the form of unemployment benefits and welfare.

This means that unless we can support the resource of labor, it will actually disappear when employment contracts because some of the workers die. To leave the business cycle, employment and productivity need to rise. But if our labor pool shrinks because we actually lose workers, there is no way to increase employement. In fact we gain full employment. But we didn’t actually make anyone any better off by doing so. Productivity didn’t increase, nor did the amount of goods produced. GNP is the same, only we’ve lost a resource. This is just ridiculous behavior and terribly short-sighted. For an economy to expand we need to do one or both of two things: 1) increase productivity and 2) increase employement. If we have unemployment, we have a resource going to waste. This is inefficient and short-sighted.

I quote directly from an economics book:

If our society is engineered in such a way as to lead us away from this ideal, we are promoting inefficiency. Inefficiencies hurt us in the long term because they mean less stuff than could otherwise be realized. That means less stuff for entrepreneurs and workers. I do not see how this could be construed as a “good” way to do things, moral or otherwise, if we begin with virtues like “self-interest”.

If our goal as rational, self-interested people is more stuff, then that means we have to do things like make sure resources that could be used don’t disappear or go to waste.

Capitalism operates under the assumption that resources will be allocated more efficiently by the actions of trade. This assumption is too strong and not borne out by empirical evidence; in fact many resources will, and have historically, go to waste. As intelligent individuals who want stuff, we need to do what we can to minimize waste so we can have more stuff.

What this means is that we have to give up some resources in the present so that we may have more in the future. If you do not with to cooperate, then I suppose you will feel like you are being stolen from. The rest of us think the waste generated by inefficiencies that can be addressed is a kind of theft, as well. Or at least I do; I suppose I should claim to speak for anyone other than myself here.

Or rather, shouldn’t claim to speak for anyone else. I hope the context made that clear.

And I want to emphasize that this isn’t to indicate that if a little control is good a lot more would be better. That has been shown to be incorrect, too, if for no other reason than the emergence and continued existence of black markets. A command economy is never, ever the way the go until human beings are robots. Even then probably not either. :slight_smile:

"To impliment this idea he needs workers. Workers will not be available if they die "
But you see, I never said that workers should starve. That is a red herring common to liberal thinking. I never claimed that reducing the unemployment rolls by death would be desireable. do you know how many workers starved in the 19th century because of business cycles? I would in fact, suggest that when the last gasps of feudalism resulted in Scottish and Irish famines, the destitute came here. Not for social welfare, but for the opportunity to be free. Since they amounted to a huge sudden increase in the labor pool, why did we not have a massive famine here? Can you produce a cite for one? Mind you, I’m not claiming that life here was “streets of gold”, but it was certainly not famine either. And I would also like to point out that the economy did not starve the excess work force, it expanded to utilize it.

All I am saying is that “Society wants”, “our goal” and “As intelligent individuals who want stuff, we[society] need to do what we can to minimize waste so we can have more stuff.” Are nonsensical. You do not have goals in common. Even in your mathematical model, the best you can do is claim an aggregate goal, or value. The point being that collective goals do not exist. You only have individual goals. You can have groups of individuals, but unless they are unanimous, there is no such thing as a group goal. Every group decision is a comprimise between those who agree with the goal and those who do not.

"Capitalism operates under the assumption that resources will be allocated more efficiently by the actions of trade. "
I’m not sure this is the assumption I was making. I was making the assertion that Capitalism operates under the assumption that individuals should deserve the freedom to seek their own fortunes according to their abilities. And that individuals deserve to have ownership rights to their own persons.

I did try to suggest earlier that a safety net was not out of the question. It simply has to be seen as charity rather than an entitlement. It has to be seen as an act by those who produce wealth to help those who do not. Not as a responsibility to be imposed on the producers. Let me try to put it this way. when you get a present from a well off friend, do you berate him for not giving you a more expensive one? Or do you thank him for his genorosity. Claiming that honestly created wealth really belongs to society as a whole rather than to the individual who created it assumes the former attitude.

“there is no system that can exist that will accurately represent preferences”
Right. You can’t have everything you want. I am not familiar with Arrow’s theorem, but it sounds like another game system which assumes,at some level, a zero sum game. If you have winners and losers, then you have assumed a zero sum game. In the real world, we have rich and poor, but that is not the same as the sinners and losers in a game. Winners and losers are linked in that winning a game with others causes the others to become losers. The problem with creating an analogy to economic or social processes with games is that winning does not necessarily create losers. The win win scenario is difficult to model I guess, I’m not really familiar enough with game theroy to know.

I understand that you are not advocating a command economy. I have hinted that some of your ideas flirt with communism. I do not mean by this that you are a communist. Just that you agree with some of their goals if not their methods. This is the reason IMHO that liberals or socialists are often called pinkos as a derogatory. Its not a nice thing, but it does have some validity.
“If our society is engineered in such a way as to lead us away from this ideal, we are promoting inefficiency. Inefficiencies hurt us in the long term because they mean less stuff than could otherwise be realized. That means less stuff for entrepreneurs and workers. I do not see how this could be construed as a “good” way to do things, moral or otherwise, if we begin with virtues like “self-interest”.”

Just one last point. The only reason this might be considered “good” is when you remember that labor is also a resource. Suggesting that resources are nto being used efficiently (by some societal measure of efficient) is tantamount to claiming that an individuals labor, his very life, belongs to society. Capitalism may or may not be the most efficient way to produce goods. But it is certainly the best way to ensure freedom to as many individuals as possible. As such, I’m not sure how you can claim any other system as “good”, if we begin with virtues like “self-interest”. :wink:

I suppose this is why I am drawn to this discussion. You seem to be reasonable in your identification with individualistic principles. But there seems to be a disconnect in terms of your desire to enforce wealth redistribution. I find I am fascinated by this disconnect.

Gee, do you think having millions of acres of unclaimed land made it ieasier for someone to take care of themselves without work?

Well I feel this is wishful thinking, and does not represent the economy I live and work in.

Only in the most trivial sense. The same way I feel you agree with a plutocracy or a fascist state. (How else are you going to keep the poor down?) That’s just… wrong. I don’t flirt with communistic ideas any more than I flirt with dictatorships. Everyone has guns, see? Does that make us all SS troops? Or are we just flirting with it?

No, it doesn’t belong to anyone. Neither does air, but we can still use it incorrectly (as a store for pollution).

Only if by “free” you mean “free to sleep not sleep on the park bench just like property owners”. Thank you, but I’ll stick with taxation.

If charity worked I would prefer that. Charity doesn’t fit the bill.

No. It only indicates there is no method to accurately respond to preferences.Whether your vote is on a punch card or with a dollar bill.

Yes. But it assumes some odd notions of “responding to preferences”. I could not find a good defence of these notions. As our earlier discussion indicated, I think that several of them do not apply rationally to an economy. That was the context that we were in, so I did not address the possibility of voting. But it seems to me that some of the “requirements of fairness” involved with the theorem may not apply there as well.

“No, it[individual labor] doesn’t belong to anyone. Neither does air, but we can still use it incorrectly (as a store for pollution).”
Perhaps we have a bigger disconnect than I thought. Are you really suggesting that your labor, your life does not belong to you? That it is up to society to decide how to use you most efficiently? Are you proposing that your labor is a public asset in the same sense that air is?

“Gee, do you think having millions of acres of unclaimed land made it ieasier for someone to take care of themselves without work?”
I assume this is addressed at my comments about Irish and Scottish imigrants. If you look at the history you might notice that many of these imigrants did not move directly to farms in the teritories. Many of them stayed in the cities. So, “millions of acres of unclaimes land” had little to do wih their success.

“Only in the most trivial sense. The same way I feel you agree with a plutocracy or a fascist state. (How else are you going to keep the poor down?) That’s just… wrong.”
OK, this is getting old. I never once said that the poor should be “kept down”. You have said this several ways during this debate. I have tried to be patient, but you simply keep asserting this without any proof. So, I officially accuse you of lying. Back up this claim or go away.

“I don’t flirt with communistic ideas any more than I flirt with dictatorships. Everyone has guns, see? Does that make us all SS troops? Or are we just flirting with it?”
But you see, you have the analogy exactly backwords. If we felt that jews should be rounded up, then you could draw a parallel between us and the SS. Our possesion of guns, or not, would be irrelevant. My point was that you agree with communists as to who owns property, collective goals, and relativistic morality. These positions are not trivial points of the communist manifesto. They are pillars of the justifications used by them for their methods. Although, I did say that you do not agree with their methods.

This has been fun. And perhaps we have made up for our earlier civility. :wink:

If you want, you have the last word. I’ll see you in another thread.

I don’t want it. Communism speaks for itself. :rolleyes:

:wink:

And honestly, it was proven in the context of voting systems. I’d recommend researching the theorem so you can see for yourself. The only proofs of it that I’ve found are in pdf files but summaries of the theorem are all over the place. Maybe they will explain it better than me.

Resurrecting this thread after it’s had a couple of days off.

Okay, so we have Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem. As erislover points out, this was originally developed in the context of Social Choice Theory. Essentially, it says that we can’t have both of the following:

  1. Unlimited diversity of personal preferences
  2. A ‘rational’ social choice/social welfare function

I’ve lost track of what exactly erislover is arguing for, except for the general proposition that the market isn’t as spiffy as some people might think.

It’s certainly true that that the market isn’t a good way to produce some kind of ‘Socially Optimal’ outcome. The AIT shows that we should be skeptical of the idea of the existence of rational ‘Social Preferences’. I wholeheartedly agree–I would deny that Social Preferences exist. And even if they do exist, it’s not clear to me what, if any, weight we would want to give to them.

But the failure of the market (or state) to produce a Socially Optimal outcome isn’t a fault of the market (or state)–it’s inherent in the non-existence or non-rationality of ‘Social Preferences’.

What can be said of the market is that, if market failures are corrected, the market delivers a Pareto Optimal outcome. What can be said of the state is that it can correct some market failures that the market cannot correct on it’s own.

The AIT should cause us to be skeptical of all attempts to claim something is socially optimal or that some program (by business or state) moves us closer to the social optimum. Insofar as erislover seems to be an advocate of property rights, regulations, and basic human needs being determined by the State (democratically), the purprose of the invocation of the AIT is unclear to me.