# I need a Nazi! A grammar Nazi.... ;) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 1, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968 "2011-06-01T15:39:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/21 "2011-06-01T21:58:29Z")
One problem with avoiding the apostrophe is that if you see a new abbreviation like PMEs, you don’t know if the ‘s’ is part of the brand name or trademark or if it is there to denote a plural (of course context may help with this) Or, even with a common abbreviation, you could have someone trademark something like DVDs (where the ‘s’ in the product logo might be a superscript and is meant to denote something like ‘Super’, i.e. an improved version of DVD, but in written plain text drops down to the baseline) So, I prefer DVD’s, PC’s, etc Question for the grammar/style nazis: Where does grammar end and style begin? (since people have said that the question in the OP is a matter of style and not grammar) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/22 "2011-06-01T22:17:44Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] One problem with avoiding the apostrophe is that if you see a new abbreviation like PMEs, you don’t know if the ‘s’ is part of the brand name or trademark or if it is there to denote a plural (of course context may help with this) [/quote] Huh? The difference in case is sufficient to clarify the lowercase final -s as a plural suffix. > [@](#): > > Or, even with a common abbreviation, you could have someone trademark something like DVDs (where the ‘s’ in the product logo might be a superscript and is meant to denote something like ‘Super’, i.e. an improved version of DVD, but in written plain text drops down to the baseline) > > So, I prefer DVD’s, PC’s, etc Again, huh? I’ve never seen an example of superscript as an abbreviation for “super” like you describe. Did you just make that up? Anyway, if it does exist as a superscript, writing a normal s for the plural is still clearly different and does not cause confusion. The unneeded apostrophe in plurals annoys me, not just because it adds clutter for no good reason, but more so because of the erroneous use of apostrophes to pluralize any damn word, which is seriously annoying. Cut that problem off at the root, I say. Do not encourage those people by ever using apostrophes where they can be avoided. I like the Wikipedia userbox that announces: “Thi’s user know’s that not every word that end’s with s need’s an apostrophe and will remove misused apostrophe’s from Wikipedia with extreme prejudice.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/23 "2011-06-01T22:48:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **YogSosoth** , I have nothing substantive to add as **Polycarp** beat me to it, but I would like to point out that you misspelled _bestiality._ My asshole license requires it. Wait, seriously? It’s “best-iality” not “beast-iality”??? That makes even less sense than the apostrophe nonsense!! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/24 "2011-06-01T23:06:42Z")
At least it’s not be’stiality. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/25 "2011-06-02T02:26:12Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s not grammar, it’s style. Older style guides uses the apostrophe for plurals formed from abbreviations (2 PC’s), but more modern style guides eliminate it (2 PCs). I used to work for a large IT services company (CSC) and in 1984 my division had its own style guide for technical writing that forbade apostrophes for plurals. So, not even that modern. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Foolish Etruscan. Obviously it would be _the PMs’ proposal_, just as it would be, if written out in full, _the prime ministers’ proposal._ This also is a matter of style, and though unusual it’s perfectly valid to use _PMs’s_ and _prime ministers’s_, if you adopt that consistently. Many threads have discussed it; a summary can be found in the [Unofficial FAQ](http://www.seiglefamily.com/gqfaq.html#apostrophe). ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_of_Lucan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/26 "2011-06-02T09:59:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wait, seriously? It’s “best-iality” not “beast-iality”??? That makes even less sense than the apostrophe nonsense!! [Latin Nazi hat] Bestiality is from the Latin _bestia_ an animal or beast. Strictly, bestiality should mean beastliness, behaving like an animal. However, it seems to have taken on a particular aspect of behaving like an animal - being really into animals, so to speak.[/Latin Nazi hat] ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/27 "2011-06-02T10:01:40Z")
> [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](#): > > [Latin Nazi hat] Bestiality is from the Latin _bestia_ an animal or beast. Strictly, bestiality should mean beastliness, behaving like an animal. However, it seems to have taken on a particular aspect of behaving like an animal - being really into animals, so to speak.[/Latin Nazi hat] Nonsense - it’s because it’s the best iality to have. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/28 "2011-06-02T10:33:49Z")
Since we are so anal about everything .. > [@Polycarp](#): > > von Englischensprache 😛 No, no, no. It 's either “der englischen Sprache” (definite article - adjective - substantive) or “des Englischen” (long live the genitive!). The dative is currently throttling the genitive in parlance but it’d still sound weird to say “vom Englischen” in German (shudder). Besides, the meaning would be slightly different. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/29 "2011-06-02T10:40:41Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > It’s a matter of style, but I am an Apostrophe Nazi and my way is correct. To whit: To _wit_. [Cite](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/to+wit) _snaps heels, slopes arm_ Heil Hitler! ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/30 "2011-06-02T10:48:05Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > To _wit_. [Cite](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/to+wit) You might not give a whit, but let’s not forget .. > [@](#): > > When icicles hang by the wall, > And Dick the shepherd blows his nail, > And Tom bears logs into the hall, > And milk comes frozen home in pail, > When blood is nipped, and ways be foul, > Then nightly sings the staring-owl, > Tu-who; > **Tu-whit** , tu-who: a merry note, > While greasy Joan doth keel the pot. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/31 "2011-06-02T12:55:12Z")
Well, according to a few people I have worked with you are all wrong! I have a couple of techies in my team who refuse to pluralise abbreviations at all. The reasoning is that the abbreviation _already contains_ the plural form, just as it contains the singular form. So Digital Versatile Disc and Digital Versatile Discs should \*both \*abbreviate to DVD. The DVD is scratched The DVD are scratched I’ve argued against it from a style point-of-view, but can’t argue against it from a strict grammar point-of-view. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/32 "2011-06-02T13:02:50Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > You might not give a whit, but let’s not forget .. > > 😛 Excellent post/username combo, but wrong sort of “to wit”; you might say I didn’t give a hoot. :p[sup]2[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/33 "2011-06-02T13:09:16Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > … > The DVD are scratched… This is an abomination in my sight. Abbreviations do not necessarily include the plural of that word or phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/34 "2011-06-02T13:29:11Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@Wallenstein](#): > > > > The DVD are scratched > > This is an abomination in my sight. Abbreviations do not necessarily include the plural of that word or phrase. In my sight, too, partly because it’s arguable that DVD is not an abbreviation. No one ever says “digital versatile disc”, and DVDs were launched with the name simply “DVD”. However, even though people do talk about “compact discs”, the abbreviation of that is “CDs”, ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@Michael\_of\_Lucan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_of_Lucan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/35 "2011-06-02T14:36:19Z")
I agree totally about DVD. As I said in my earlier post, abbreviations like DVD have become nouns in their own right. Most people would have to think very carefully to work out what DVD even stands for. The standard usage is one DVD, two DVDs. So, treating DVD as singular or plural is just obtuse jargon, someone being deliberately obscure to confuse people. It is poor communication, since it does not convey a clear meaning. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/36 "2011-06-02T17:30:02Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Huh? The difference in case is sufficient to clarify the lowercase final -s as a plural suffix. Examples are vanishingly rare, but there are various brand names that use a mix of upper and lower case letters, and the trademark will be for that set of symbols. One of the more unusual examples was [noparse]DivX;)[/noparse] [now just DivX] , which was used to avoid confusion with DIVX. The confusion that this might cause is so unlikely that I’ve been switching to the bare s plural when I can remember to do it. A similar case, although not one with plural confusion : Which is correct — GAASFET, GAAS FET, or GaAs FET? The third one, since it’s made with Gallium Arsenide as the substrate. “GaAsFET” is occasionally seen as well. Either way it’s pronounced like ‘gas fet’. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/37 "2011-06-02T18:30:03Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wait, seriously? It’s “best-iality” not “beast-iality”??? That makes even less sense than the apostrophe nonsense!! The spelling was decided by an asshole, hence my defense of it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/38 "2011-06-02T18:33:00Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > In my sight, too, partly because it’s arguable that DVD is not an abbreviation. No one ever says “digital versatile disc”, and DVDs were launched with the name simply “DVD”. > > However, even though people do talk about “compact discs”, the abbreviation of that is “CDs”, While DVD was orginally short for _digital **video** disk_, I think the real issue is that spelling it in all caps is a sign that the word is meant to be pronounced letter by letter rather than according to the ordinary rules of phonetics. (Which, for many iniatialism, wouldn’t e possible anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![ministryman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@ministryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ministryman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/39 "2011-06-02T18:54:46Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > At least it’s not be’stiality. or Bes’ tiality. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968/40 "2011-06-02T19:00:43Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Question for the grammar/style nazis: Where does grammar end and style begin? (since people have said that the question in the OP is a matter of style and not grammar) Style is primarily punctuation. It has no effect on content or how words link together. The following two sentences are grammatically identical, but stylistically disparate: Walter finally returned my CDs, both of which had been scratched. Though he said, “I’m really sorry about that,” I knew he was lying. Walter finally returned my CD’s – both of which had been scratched. Though he said “I’m really sorry about that”, I knew he was lying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-nazi-a-grammar-nazi/583968.md?page=3)