# I need a quick Game of Thrones spoiler. (spoiler) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016 "2011-07-22T19:24:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/21 "2011-07-23T01:13:16Z")
Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/22 "2011-07-23T01:33:20Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I actually see Jaime as one of the book’s heroes. Not advocating twincest or anything, but you can understand _why_ they had their relationship, and the reasons he broke his oath and became the Kingslayer are understandable. Look, the guy threw a little kid out of a window, there is no explanation that makes him not a villain. He’s not a villain for killing Aerys, he’s not a villain for fucking Cersei, he’s not even a villain for thinking honor is complete bullshit. He threw Bran out of a window, there is very little he can do at this point to not be put squarely into the “bad guy” column. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/23 "2011-07-23T01:44:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m fully on board, but I think this is good writing. As with many I vaguely like Jaime, despite his numerous flaws. And apparently as with at least some, I vaguely dislike Catelyn, despite her significant strengths. It’s been said many times, but Martin really has excelled at creating complex characters that to some extent subvert ( or at least nicely nuance ) the traditional tropes characters are usually forced into by the structure of the story. I get the impression from the books that Martin _wants_ us to like Catelyn and just fails at that for me. But your interpretation probably makes more sense. Jaime, however, is one of the characters that Martin absolutely gets spot on. As others have mentioned, he threw a kid out of fucking window, but he’s still a likeable guy. That’s not easy to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/24 "2011-07-23T01:45:02Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Look, the guy threw a little kid out of a window, there is no explanation that makes him not a villain. He’s not a villain for killing Aerys, he’s not a villain for fucking Cersei, he’s not even a villain for thinking honor is complete bullshit. He threw Bran out of a window, there is very little he can do at this point to not be put squarely into the “bad guy” column. Well, I don’t know. If he had let Bran run off unharmed to tattle, Jaime, Cersei, and their children would have been put to death. He had a choice between the life of some kid and his own life and the life of his family. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/25 "2011-07-23T01:50:01Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Well, I don’t know. If he had let Bran run off unharmed to tattle, Jaime, Cersei, and their children would have been put to death. He had a choice between the life of some kid and his own life and the life of his family. Doesn’t Cersei comment that they could have either scared him into not talking or lied about it. He was 6 in the books. He didn’t know what sex was. Fairly easy to make up a story explaining that Bran didn’t see what he thought. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/26 "2011-07-23T01:57:07Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Doesn’t Cersei comment that they could have either scared him into not talking or lied about it. He was 6 in the books. He didn’t know what sex was. Fairly easy to make up a story explaining that Bran didn’t see what he thought. Cersei does say that, and she may have been right, but Jon Arryn had already figured out the incest angle and neither Cersei or Jaime knew whether he’d told anyone. If Bran starts talking about how he saw the two of them “wrestling” or whatever he’d think it was, there may have been someone around who could’ve put 2 and 2 together. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/27 "2011-07-23T02:06:31Z")
> [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > I get the impression from the books that Martin _wants_ us to like Catelyn and just fails at that for me. But your interpretation probably makes more sense. > > Jaime, however, is one of the characters that Martin absolutely gets spot on. As others have mentioned, he threw a kid out of fucking window, but he’s still a likeable guy. That’s not easy to accomplish. I get the same impression of Catelyn and do not like her in book or show despite feeling that I’m being lead by the nose to. And I _do_ like Jamie. He’s very complex, to have done terrible things but still make you like him. Much like Walter on **Fringe**. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/28 "2011-07-23T02:18:14Z")
Wow, I thought I’d get like 2 posts answering my question in this thread. This proves we can talk about our fiction endlessly no matter the question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/29 "2011-07-23T02:20:54Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Well, I don’t know. If he had let Bran run off unharmed to tattle, Jaime, Cersei, and their children would have been put to death. He had a choice between the life of some kid and his own life and the life of his family. You can’t excuse throwing a kid out of a window, you just can’t. He’s a bad guy, period. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/30 "2011-07-23T03:49:52Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You can’t excuse throwing a kid out of a window, you just can’t. He’s a bad guy, period. What if the kid was trapped in a burning car and you couldn’t get him out? ---
**Author:** ![Spectralist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Spectralist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectralist)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/31 "2011-07-23T11:52:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You can’t excuse throwing a kid out of a window, you just can’t. He’s a bad guy, period. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that. Best case scenario for not throwing Bran out the window is 3 innocent children and 2 less than innocent adults are put to the sword. But likely as not civil war could erupt from it as well. God knows what Tywin would do if his children and grandchildren had been executed for incest and cuckoldry, and that assumes they are captured and executed cleanly to begin with but I doubt Jaime would have gone down without one hell of a fight. So it’s one innocent life vs several and the possibility of war and thousands or tens of thousands more dead. That’s a damn good excuse for throwing a kid out of a window. Far more unforgivable to me is his chastisement of Ned by slaughtering his guards and injuring Ned. Because that doesn’t help anybody. It’s not like Catelyn would hear that had happened and up and release Tyrion. It could only make the situation worse. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/32 "2011-07-23T13:07:04Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Now, the incident that happened at the The Twins castle that put this whole gory story into motion, has since become legend. “Massacre near Hag’s Mire”. That’s how the bards sang it. The local Maesters called it, “The Winterfell Wedding Chapel Massacre”. How it happened, who was there, how many got killed and who killed them - changes depending on who’s telling the story. In actual fact, the massacre didn’t happen during a wedding at all. It was a wedding rehearsal. This is a whoosh, right? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/33 "2011-07-23T18:10:48Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > This is a whoosh, right? Ever watched _Kill Bill_? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016/34 "2011-07-23T18:46:47Z")
The tie-ins to Song of Ice and Fire are interesting. There’s a whole website, [The Inn at the Crossroads](http://innatthecrossroads.com/), dedicated to recipes from Westeros. There are several covers of the songs [The Rains of Castamere](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0xu7P-zzsk&feature=related) and [The Bear and the Maiden Fair](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyaN-QFNmc), and of course that song of Cersei calling on the Seven to [give Jaime a hand](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnuYhFRYbAw). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-quick-game-of-thrones-spoiler-spoiler/590016.md?page=1)