# I Need a Semantic Defense from Alien Attacks! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635 "2014-06-12T16:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/1 "2014-06-12T16:37:36Z")
It’s not the aliens who are attacking me. It’s my kid. My 12 year old son has asked me on several occasions whether I believe in aliens. As in sentient life forms on other planets. My response is “I neither believe or disbelieve.” When asked for further explanation, I tell him that I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that they do exist, but given the vastness of the universe, I think it’s quite possible. He is not satisfied with that, claiming that it’s a “yes or no question.” He does not accept that “maybe” is a valid answer in this case. I refuse to give him a yes or no, and he keeps haranguing me about it, I keep trying to explain why it is not a yes or no question, especially given the lack of evidence either way, and he keeps insisting that I just say yes or no, and I eventually resort to flat-out ordering him to just drop it already because if I don’t do that, we’d be there all day and I’d go nuts. I would much prefer to persuade him that my position is valid. I expect that somewhere in the worlds of semantics, logic, and rhetoric are techniques and devices that would be useful to me but I’m not sure what/how. I’d also like to convince him that my position is correct, but that’s secondary at this point. Right now, I’d be satisfied just getting him to STFU about it. What say you, Dopers? ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/2 "2014-06-12T16:48:14Z")
“I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to form a reasonable opinion one way or the other”. That seems to be similar to arguments about agnosticism, except with the substitution of “aliens” for “god(s)”. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/3 "2014-06-12T16:51:57Z")
First, ask him if it rained yesterday in your neighborhood. Surely, he will tell you Yes or No, and you’ll point out that this is an example of a question which does have a Yes or No answer. Then ask him if it will rain tomorrow. And then you can point out that some questions DON’T have a yes/no answer. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/4 "2014-06-12T16:52:28Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Right now, I’d be satisfied just getting him to STFU about it. “Yes, I think there’s a good chance that alien life exists because the universe is so vast.” He’ll hear “yes” and you can both move on to the next topic. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/5 "2014-06-12T16:53:02Z")
PS: I think this is less about semantics, and more about logic. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/6 "2014-06-12T16:56:13Z")
“I can believe there isn’t life elsewhere in the universe since it’s possible that life only came about once and we’re it, just us here on planet Earth… BUT!.. I can _also_ believe that there _is_ sentient life out there too, since we have proof of it here on Earth in me and you so that’s a physical possibility. In that sense, it’s not a ‘yes or no’ position to believe in but a ‘yes _and_ no’ proposition.” ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/7 "2014-06-12T17:01:12Z")
This is credited to Sagan, among others, and has always haunted me by encapsulating the possibilities and potentials so concisely: “Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Either way, it’s a staggering thought.” You might add that to your discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/8 "2014-06-12T17:09:26Z")
One might say that you actually don’t believe in aliens, and that that position is different from believing aliens don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/9 "2014-06-12T17:10:14Z")
how many grains of sand are on the earth? there is an exact number. a person really wanting to know could count them all. saying you don’t know how many is a valid answer. some questions might take a lifetime or longer to produce an answer. if you aren’t willing to spend the time to come to a definite answer then saying you don’t know is valid for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/10 "2014-06-12T17:12:00Z")
Does he mean microscopic life, plant life, sea life, insect life, animal life, or intelligent life? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/11 "2014-06-12T17:17:52Z")
I’m a little surprised that a 12 year old can’t understand that some things aren’t black and white. If it were my family, I’d be less interested in shutting him up, and more interested in using this as a teaching moment. Don’t just answer the kid …engage him! Talk about evolution, and how long it takes to evolve–(does the kid understand timespans in millions of years? If not, discuss the dinosaurs with him. Everybody loves dinosaurs ) Then try to explain evolution of planets --see if he can grasp the concept of billions of years. Here’s one way to explain it that a kid should be able to understand: Stretch out your arms (like Jesus on the cross). The distance between your fingertips represents the 15 billion years of the universe since the big bang. The width of one hand is the existence of planet earth, and the entire history of homo sapiens since the cave men is only as wide as one strand of hair. If the kid gets it, great! If not, try again later. And then again. Then remind yourself that no, you can’t kill him. 'Cause one day he’s going to take care of you in your wheelchair. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/12 "2014-06-12T17:20:55Z")
To some extent, the kid has a point - “believe” doesn’t require that the position be rational, logical or evidence-based. I think the primary fallacy he’s making is actually pretty wide-spread in today’s culture: the idea that everyone should believe something about every issue, whether or not they have any basis for that belief. You see it in politics and with celebrities all the time. Newscasters will ask “So, based on your vast experience as an actor in soap operas, what’s your belief about global warming?” and then look interested regardless of the response. Answering with facts or anything but dogmatic certainty is just “dodging the question.” So I’d back up and address the issue there. Tell your son that it’s OK to not have an opinion. It’s OK to base your opinion on the consensus of the respected authorities on the issue. It’s even a good thing to update that opinion as new evidence comes in, since the opinion really ought to be based on the evidence in the first place. When there’s a lack of evidence, it might be a mistake to have any strong opinion one way or the other. Of course, I have to remember that he’s 12. I like kids up until about 12, but once they get into that whole puberty-teenager thing, they’re just plain obnoxious and they stay that way pretty much until they get their first real job. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/13 "2014-06-12T17:22:21Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > He is not satisfied with that, claiming that it’s a “yes or no question.” He does not accept that “maybe” is a valid answer in this case. Sounds like he’s one of the many people who is uncomfortable with uncertainty. Religion (and irreligion—dogmatic atheists as well as dogmatic fundamentalists) seems to be plagued with such people, who seem to be unable to say, about anything, “I don’t know.” They’d much prefer a definitive answer, so that they “know” one way or the other, even if that “knowledge” isn’t backed up by anything solid. This could be a teachable moment, where your son could learn that there are some things we don’t, and can’t, know for sure; and that even with the things we can know, it’s better not to insist on a firm conclusion before all the data is in. [QUOTE=William Butler Yeats] The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. [/QUOTE] Or, you could “[just say yes and we’ll move on.](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/96/96tspace.phtml)” [QUOTE=Saturday Night Live] Harry Caray: Hey! Now Ken we all know that the moon is not made of green cheese. Dr. Ken Waller: Yes, that’s true Harry. Harry Caray: But what if it were made of barbeque spare ribs—would you eat it then? Dr. Ken Waller: What? Harry Caray: I know I would. Heck, I’d have seconds! Then polish it off with a tall cool Budweiser. I would do it. Dr. Ken Waller: Yeah! Harry Caray: Would you? Dr. Ken Waller: I’m confused. Harry Caray: It’s a simple question: _Would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??_ Dr. Ken Waller: I don’t know how to answer that. Harry Caray: It’s not rocket science. Just say yes and we’ll move on. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/14 "2014-06-12T17:26:27Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > “I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to form a reasonable opinion one way or the other”. That hasn’t worked. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Yes, I think there’s a good chance that alien life exists because the universe is so vast.” He’ll hear “yes” and you can both move on to the next topic. He wouldn’t hear that as “yes.” He’s rejected all similar statements. He wants a yes or a no. > [@cmyk](#): > > “I can believe there isn’t life elsewhere in the universe since it’s possible that life only came about once and we’re it, just us here on planet Earth… BUT!.. I can _also_ believe that there _is_ sentient life out there too, since we have proof of it here on Earth in me and you so that’s a physical possibility. In that sense, it’s not a ‘yes or no’ position to believe in but a ‘yes _and_ no’ proposition.” I’m not sure I understand the difference between a yes or no position and a yes and no proposition here. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > This is credited to Sagan, among others, and has always haunted me by encapsulating the possibilities and potentials so concisely: “Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Either way, it’s a staggering thought.” You might add that to your discussion. And he’d come back at me with “do YOU believe they exist or not?” Can you see why I’m frustrated!! 😛 > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Does he mean microscopic life, plant life, sea life, insect life, animal life, or intelligent life? He definitely doesn’t mean microscopic-only. Probably intelligent, but maybe animal would suffice. > [@johnpost](#): > > saying you don’t know how many is a valid answer. > … > if you aren’t willing to spend the time to come to a definite answer then saying you don’t know is valid for you. I know it’s valid and you know it’s valid. The question is how to I get him to accept that it’s valid? I’m not sure I know what you mean by “spending the time to come to a definite answer” here. Coming to a definite answer here is impossible at this time. > [@Bozuit](#): > > One might say that you actually don’t believe in aliens, and that that position is different from believing aliens don’t exist. Ah, subtle. How would you suggest I get that distinction across to him? > [@Keeve](#): > > PS: I think this is less about semantics, and more about logic. Yeah, I wasn’t sure what terms to use in the title. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/15 "2014-06-12T17:29:11Z")
1. “sssh… they’re _listening…_” 2. “Sometimes I do, but maybe that’s just what they want me to think. Or maybe they want me to think that that’s what what they want me to think…” 3. “I never saw a Purple Denebian, I never hope to see one; But I can tell you, anyhow, I’d rather see than be one.” ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/16 "2014-06-12T17:35:06Z")
Thanks for all the answers and responses! > [@chappachula](#): > > I’m a little surprised that a 12 year old can’t understand that some things aren’t black and white. He’s not a black-and-white thinker on any subject other than this. That’s one reason it’s so frustrating. I’ve never had to explain “gray-area” thinking to him before. > [@](#): > > If it were my family, I’d be less interested in shutting him up, and more interested in using this as a teaching moment. > Don’t just answer the kid …engage him! 😕 That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to do all along. I thought that was clear. Sorry if it wasn’t. > [@](#): > > Talk about evolution, and how long it takes to evolve–(does the kid understand timespans in millions of years? If not, discuss the dinosaurs with him. Everybody loves dinosaurs ) > Then try to explain evolution of planets --see if he can grasp the concept of billions of years. > > Here’s one way to explain it that a kid should be able to understand: > Stretch out your arms (like Jesus on the cross). The distance between your fingertips represents the 15 billion years of the universe since the big bang. > The width of one hand is the existence of planet earth, and the entire history of homo sapiens since the cave men is only as wide as one strand of hair. > > If the kid gets it, great! > If not, try again later. > And then again. > Then remind yourself that no, you can’t kill him. 'Cause one day he’s going to take care of you in your wheelchair. 🙂 He understands evolution (and doesn’t understand how anybody could possibly believe in creationism, especially young-earth creationism). How would understanding evolution help in this case? > [@dracoi](#): > > To some extent, the kid has a point - “believe” doesn’t require that the position be rational, logical or evidence-based. > > I think the primary fallacy he’s making is actually pretty wide-spread in today’s culture: the idea that everyone should believe something about every issue, whether or not they have any basis for that belief. You see it in politics and with celebrities all the time. Newscasters will ask “So, based on your vast experience as an actor in soap operas, what’s your belief about global warming?” and then look interested regardless of the response. Answering with facts or anything but dogmatic certainty is just “dodging the question.” > > So I’d back up and address the issue there. Tell your son that it’s OK to not have an opinion. It’s OK to base your opinion on the consensus of the respected authorities on the issue. It’s even a good thing to update that opinion as new evidence comes in, since the opinion really ought to be based on the evidence in the first place. When there’s a lack of evidence, it might be a mistake to have any strong opinion one way or the other. Hm…this approach could work. I’d just have to find a good way to present it to him. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/17 "2014-06-12T17:43:29Z")
“The evidence, or lack thereof, forces me to fail to reject the null hypothesis (that is, that aliens don’t exist.)” Then, while he’s chewing on that, find something suitably mindless on television. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/18 "2014-06-12T17:44:39Z")
Maybe because he understands belief is strictly a B&W position. So perhaps he’s asking you, personally, what your belief is on whether or not there’s life out there? So long as he understands we can’t really know for sure, he wants to know what you’d bet on if you had to. Whatever your bet is, that should suffice as your “belief”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/19 "2014-06-12T17:51:29Z")
Next time he asks, go into your room and come back with a shoebox, with the lid taped shut. Ask him if he believes that this shoebox contains a piece of paper with the word “aliens” on it. Then ask him to justify his answer. Then put the shoebox back in your room without ever opening it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/20 "2014-06-12T17:53:34Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > And he’d come back at me with “do YOU believe they exist or not?” Can you see why I’m frustrated!! 😛 You could start by saying there is a reasonable possibility that some form of other life exists somewhere else in the universe, but it seems unlikely, in all that immense space that we would ever learn of it. Not to mention, the definition of “life” itself is kind of open to some debate, we could discover alien life an not even realize it. But the real point is that word, _believe_. “Do YOU _believe_ that Tommy Marks killed Mrs. Odman’s terrier? I think it is possible, Tommy says he didn’t, Mrs. Odman says he did, there is not enough evidence at hand for me to form an opinion.” In other words, the semantic issue is about the word “believe”, tell him to form his question in a way that you can give him a meaningful answer. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635.md?page=2)