# I Need a Semantic Defense from Alien Attacks! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635 "2014-06-12T16:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/41 "2014-06-13T03:31:30Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > I think the primary fallacy he’s making is actually pretty wide-spread in today’s culture: the idea that everyone should believe something about every issue, whether or not they have any basis for that belief. Everybody has to believe in _something._ I believe I’ll have another beer. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/42 "2014-06-13T03:34:56Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > See, this is part of the attitude I was complaining about. It’s impossible for every person to have formed a belief about every issue. It’s entirely reasonable to say “I don’t know what to believe” and to leave it at that. Instead, we get tricked into this idea that we need to take a position… and then, having taken a position we feel a need to dig our heels in to defend it. (And then, when all is said and done, we’ve ruined Thanksgiving debating an issue that none of us know the first thing about. 🙂 ) > > I really think people need change their attitudes about “I don’t know.” Sometimes, that’s the most wise answer you can give. I believe you’re right. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/43 "2014-06-13T06:49:42Z")
I think the central conceit is that as soon as one hears of a concept, one forms a belief about it one way or another, in spite of oneself or any pretensions one has to being a Vulcan. This may or may not be true (I personally think it generally is) but that’s the base of your son’s issue - you’re aware of the concept of aliens, so you _must_ have a belief about their existence. Assuming you’re not a robot, I tend to agree with him. I don’t believe in true agnosticism (heh). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/44 "2014-06-13T07:11:24Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Technically, the answer is “no” you don’t believe that aliens **do exist**. You believe there is a strong possibility that aliens **might exist** , but you aren’t certain that it (their existence) is a fact. Agreed. I’d say, “No, I don’t believe aliens exist. But wait: now ask me if I believe aliens don’t exist. Answer’s also no.” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/45 "2014-06-13T08:32:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think the central conceit is that as soon as one hears of a concept, one forms a belief about it one way or another, in spite of oneself or any pretensions one has to being a Vulcan. This may or may not be true (I personally think it generally is) but that’s the base of your son’s issue - you’re aware of the concept of aliens, so you _must_ have a belief about their existence. Assuming you’re not a robot, I tend to agree with him. > > I don’t believe in true agnosticism (heh). Well count me among the robots and Vulcans, because there are lots of things where I think A is more likely than B, but I have no opinion/belief beyond that, and lots more things where I just don’t know, period. And I think it’s a _problem_ if people think they must form an opinion, even when they do not have sufficient information to do so (or even situations where sufficient information doesn’t exist at this time). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/46 "2014-06-13T09:05:36Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > “Yes, I think there’s a good chance that alien life exists because the universe is so vast.” He’ll hear “yes” and you can both move on to the next topic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/47 "2014-06-13T13:25:22Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well count me among the robots and Vulcans, because there are lots of things where **I think A is more likely than B** , but I have no opinion/belief beyond that that’s already a belief, I bolded there. Functionally, “I think aliens are more likely than not” _is the same as_ “I believe aliens exist” > [@](#): > > , and lots more things where I just don’t know, period. Such as? Personally, I’m no Vulcan - almost as soon as I’m aware of a concept, I form _some_ internal belief as to its truth value. So for the OP, if my daughter asked me that question, in it’s B&W no-weasel form, I’d answer “Yes, I believe there are sentient beings out there”. If asked _in a scientific context_, I could emm and aah about the limits of our knowledge, but still, _at my core_, I have my own belief on the matter. Ditto for God, or the possibility of AI, or the existence of True Love… I can’t, for the life of me, think of a single subject where, even though I might wish to remain neutral, I have not, in fact, formed an internal opinion which can be accessed by introspection. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/48 "2014-06-13T13:54:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > that’s already a belief, I bolded there. Ah OK. Then you have no issue with the OP’s original answer to her child: that she thinks it’s likely aliens exist but it’s not a yes / no question. > [@](#): > > Functionally, “I think aliens are more likely than not” _is the same as_ “I believe aliens exist” Disagree. One is a claim about the universe, that may be inconsistent with reality. The other is not. > [@](#): > > Such as? For example just now I was reading about sterile neutrinos. Interesting concept. Do they exist? Fuck knows. There is insufficient data at this time, and I’m not the right person to be analyzing that data in any event. > [@](#): > > Personally, I’m no Vulcan - almost as soon as I’m aware of a concept, I form _some_ internal belief as to its truth value. So for the OP, if my daughter asked me that question, in it’s B&W no-weasel form, I’d answer “Yes, I believe there are sentient beings out there”. > > If asked _in a scientific context_, I could emm and aah about the limits of our knowledge, but still, _at my core_, I have my own belief on the matter. Ditto for God, or the possibility of AI, or the existence of True Love… I can’t, for the life of me, think of a single subject where, even though I might wish to remain neutral, I have not, in fact, formed an internal opinion which can be accessed by introspection. Well, we differ on that. And I think you are wrong to paint anyone who doesn’t share your personality on such things a “robot” or “Vulcan”. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/49 "2014-06-13T14:17:36Z")
It’s a poorly formed question - its implications and possible meanings have “yes” answers and “no” answers. Do I believe that there is life on some planet other than Earth? Yes. Intelligent life? Yes, somewhere. Life capable of communicating with Earth? Uh,no. Interstellar space-faring life? No. Aliens visiting Earth? Hell, no. Which of these questions will you be answering? ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/50 "2014-06-13T15:42:25Z")
I’m thinking that he’s looking around the world and sees thousands of stories about people who have encountered intelligent aliens and he wants to know if the stories are true. Tell him you think the stories aren’t true. I also loved the coin flip answer. > [@Quercus](#): > > Maybe flip a coin and cover it before either one of you can see the result. Ask him if he believes it is heads. If he says “Yes” you can start saying “Really? You don’t think there’s a chance it’s tails? Then how can you really believe it is heads?”. The advantage to this is that if he just walks away without engaging it, but tries to ask you about aliens later, you can just pull another coin out of your pocket and threaten him with it. ---
**Author:** ![hyden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@hyden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hyden)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/51 "2014-06-13T16:07:02Z")
Honestly, it s a false dichotomy. He could be doing it as a means to exert control and power. Not only by forcing you to give into his line of thought (it has to be yes or no), but by also forcing you abandon your previous stand. The fact that you state he hasnt had issues with ‘grey area’ previously, only reinforces the possibility that it is being done as a purposeful show of power/control. Have him google the term I opened with. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/52 "2014-06-13T16:10:27Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Originally Posted by Bozuit View Post > One might say that you actually don’t believe in aliens, and that that position is different from believing aliens don’t exist. > > Ah, subtle. How would you suggest I get that distinction across to him? “Do I believe that aliens exist? No. Of course, if you ask me if I believe that aliens _don’t_ exist, I’ll answer ‘no’ to that, too. It’s fun to imagine what aliens might be like if they do exist, but I can’t say I \*believe \* in something unless I have strong evidence or strong feelings one way or the other. Right now, I believe I’ll go make myself a sandwich.” ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/53 "2014-06-13T16:42:22Z")
Ask him something that is knowable but that he doesn’t know it yet. Do you think there is a man in South America who is 118 years old? What does he BELIEVE, yes or no? Sure he can do research to try to find the answer, but tell him to imagine that he couldn’t. Your belief about aliens is exactly like his belief about any other unknown fact. The research is still inconclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/54 "2014-06-13T18:25:06Z")
To quote Dan Simmons: “I’m waiting to believe.” ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/55 "2014-06-13T19:08:13Z")
So many excellent replies here. Thanks. I think I’m going to try the paper-in-a-shoebox thing this evening without telling him why I’m doing it until after. Will report back. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/56 "2014-06-13T19:13:33Z")
I’m with **dracoi** : > [@dracoi](#): > > It’s impossible for every person to have formed a belief about every issue. It’s entirely reasonable to say “I don’t know what to believe” and to leave it at that. […] I really think people need change their attitudes about “I don’t know.” Sometimes, that’s the most wise answer you can give. My thought was to approach it along these lines: > [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Ask him something that is knowable but that he doesn’t know it yet. Do you think there is a man in South America who is 118 years old? What does he BELIEVE, yes or no? …but with something that is essentially unknowable. Like, it’s entirely possible that somewhere in India at 2:15pm (local time) a little girl named Sapna colored on page 31 of a second-hand copy of _Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets_ with a blue crayon. Does he believe this happened? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/57 "2014-06-13T19:34:12Z")
I’m short on time so just jumping to the end to post my thoughts. Demonstrate your answer by example. Show him a box that he hasn’t seen before and ask him if there is a ball in it. Refuse to answer any other questions about it and then challenge him to prove his answer without looking into the box. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/58 "2014-06-14T00:29:38Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Next time he asks, go into your room and come back with a shoebox, with the lid taped shut. Ask him if he believes that this shoebox contains a piece of paper with the word “aliens” on it. Then ask him to justify his answer. Then put the shoebox back in your room without ever opening it. This is brilliant. There is nothing like an object lesson for kids who are wrapped around the axle. On the subject of engaging him, I’d say talk about how he could phrase his question to be “yes” or “no.” “Do you believe alien life is possible?” “Do you believe that technologically advanced aliens have visited the Earth?” (I think this is his real question) “Do you believe that aliens walk among us?” That sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/59 "2014-06-14T16:30:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Ah OK. Then you have no issue with the OP’s original answer to her child: that she thinks it’s likely aliens exist but it’s not a yes / no question. No, I’m saying “I think it’s likely” is effectively the same as saying “I believe they exist” > [@](#): > > Disagree. One is a claim about the universe, that may be inconsistent with reality. The other is not. No - reread the first statement - it is, in fact, only a statement about belief - “_I think_ it’s likely…”. It’s _not_ the same as “These calculations show…” or somesuch. Although even there, if “These calculations…” refer to the Drake equation, again you’re talking about belief, since a lot of the later fraction terms, and the L term, are just statements of belief anyway. > [@](#): > > For example just now I was reading about sterile neutrinos. Interesting concept. Do they exist? Fuck knows. > > There is insufficient data at this time, and I’m not the right person to be analyzing that data in any event. Whereas I _already_ have a belief about them, despite only hearing about them now from you and Wiki-ing them… I wouldn’t remotely consider my belief anything scientific or related to the truth, but on hearing of the concept, my thought was “_Another_ Particle-of-the-gaps :rolleyes:” which has nothing to do with the physics of the matter, and everything to do with my attitude to _physicists_ - but is definitely a belief about the concept. > [@](#): > > Well, we differ on that. > And I think you are wrong to paint anyone who doesn’t share your personality on such things a “robot” or “Vulcan”. Sorry - a poor choice of words. Rather let’s say I think everyone forms a belief as to the truth of every concept they come across, but they may be more invested in outward objectivity to even realise as much. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635/60 "2014-06-14T19:13:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sorry - a poor choice of words. Rather let’s say I think everyone forms a belief as to the truth of every concept they come across, but they may be more invested in outward objectivity to even realise as much. I think this is total BS. Let me offer an alternative explanation for what you’re observing: [Cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). When you’re presented with a question like “Are there aliens” you’re facing cognitive dissonance from multiple sources. Some of those sources are: [ul] [li]I believe I’m intelligent. Intelligent people know things. Not knowing this would conflict with my belief. Therefore, I should know the answer to this.[/li][li]I believe John is a trustworthy person. John believes in aliens. Having a different opinion about aliens would conflict with my belief that he’s trustworthy. Therefore, I will conform to his belief about aliens.[/li][li]I believe that the Bible says man/Earth is special and unique. Aliens would make this untrue. Therefore, I will refuse to believe in aliens. (And this works in reverse if the Earth _must not_ be special and therefore aliens \*must \*exist.)[/li][/ul] All of this happens very quickly and almost unconsciously. Perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of when you say “everyone forms a belief.” But I’m going to reject the notion that “outward objectivity” is just some denial of your belief. It’s not a belief until you accept it as yours\*. If you refuse to allow some lizard-brain emotional override to dictate your belief, that’s how _thinking_ works! \*In fact, one of the remarkably dangerous things about cognitive dissonance is that saying something leads you to support it _after the fact_. So if the OP chose to tell her son “Yes” just to get him to shut up, it’s a very real phenomenon of psychology that she may come to believe that this was really her opinion all along. Read up on the Wikipedia page if you don’t agree. It’s been experimentally demonstrated. The intelligent thing to do is to take the time to think about the issue and form a reasonable and educated opinion, and recognize if you’re not able to do so. If you can’t form a reasonable and educated opinion, then the intelligent thing to do is to admit that you just don’t know. That takes some mental fortitude because it’s a little uncomfortable to not know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-need-a-semantic-defense-from-alien-attacks/690635.md?page=4)