# I never read Fleming's "James Bond" books. Are the movies true to the books Bond character or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051 "2015-06-21T02:52:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/21 "2015-06-21T19:29:52Z")
The literary Bond is more snobbish and sadistic than the movie ones. His movie antagonists are more internationalised than the specifically Soviet etc. literary ones, for box office reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/22 "2015-06-21T20:01:14Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I read the books as a teenager in the 1970s, when they were just barely dated; it would be interesting to re-read them as 60+ year old period pieces. I read them all when in my mid-teens in the 60s and thoroughly enjoyed them. I tried reading one a few years ago and could barely get through it. Decades of life experience teach you too much for them to be plausible. Too many things are done in ways that are needless or could be better done in a more obvious and logical way, or perhaps just don’t add up. Others don’t fit with what you’ve come to know about human nature and how things work in a real world sense. I found the same to be true with Perry Mason novels as well, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/23 "2015-06-21T20:29:56Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I read the books as a teenager in the 1970s, when they were just barely dated; it would be interesting to re-read them as 60+ year old period pieces. > > Pity he didn’t live to see the 1967 version of _Casino Royale_. (snicker) I just started reading them a few months ago. I used to watch the Connery movies on tv as a kid back in the 80’s. Then I saw a few of the Brosnan films in the 90’s. In my opinion, the Craig films are the best. But back to the books… I have read Moonraker, Casino Royale and From Russia With Love. They have been quite enjoyable, though hopelessly dated with their depiction of women (basically as creatures totally unfit to make it in the world). In the books, Bond is depicted more as a civil servant with perks, but also a pretty staid life. It’s not until he’s on assignment that the movie Bond comes out, but the books make it clear that those assignments are really few and far between. He also comes off in the books as competent, but also frequently benefitting from luck. In my mind while reading, I definitely see Connery. However, I think Craig has really best captured the character of Bond from the books. I would recommend reading Moonraker for a good taste of Bond from the books. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/24 "2015-06-21T21:06:13Z")
Here’s [an excellent post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4873934&postcount=2) by Mr. Ekers from some years ago. Even better than his description of the European discovery of porcelain. 😛 ETA: Although this is not a comparison of the character, but the plots. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/25 "2015-06-21T21:28:02Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > In the books that I’ve read, Bond fucks up quite regularly and yet manages to stay alive by the skin of his teeth. In _ **OHMSS** _, for example, his cover is blown quite easily (even before another agent accidentally fingers him), and he can’t ski worth crap (in the movie, he seems to be a world-class downhiller). He’s lucky to get away at all. Not only does Book Bond have egregious plot-armor, but the character basically seems aware of the fact that he is the protagonist of his own book series, and so can’t die. His plans generally boil down to him walking in the front door of the heavily guarded enemy lair, getting captured and figuring that once the bullets are done flying he’ll be fine and everyone else will be dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/26 "2015-06-21T22:31:37Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Here’s [an excellent post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4873934&postcount=2) by Mr. Ekers from some years ago. Even better than his description of the European discovery of porcelain. 😛 > ETA: Although this is not a comparison of the character, but the plots. Ha, that Bond summary may have been my first (certainly ONE of my first) posts on this board. I don’t offhand recall the porcelain description, though. If we’re considering Fleming’s own opinion on what movie Bond should have been, I’ve read (but can’t immediately cite since I can’t find the damned Bond Encyclopedia at the moment) that Fleming had in mind a David Niven type, i.e. a cad and outcast from the upper classes, expelled from Eton, sleeping with married women to avoid entanglements etc. Fleming has a character describe Niven in positive terms in “You Only Live Twice” (one of the Japanese pearl divers, a beautiful young woman named Kissy Suzuki, describes having been hired to make some films in Hollywood and finding the experience most unpleasant, but for the kindness of Niven), but by the next (and last) novel, “The Man With the Golden Gun”, Bond declines a knighthood by saying “\* am a Scottish peasant”, which strikes me as Fleming likening the character to Sean Connery rather than Niven, since Connery by then had made his first two Bond films. Personally, I have my doubts that Niven could have made a good James Bond. Even if we discount the crazy-ass 1967 _Casino Royale_, I’m not sure Niven quite had the toughness necessary. His role in _The Guns of Navarone_ was more of “smart guy who does tech stuff but lacks the spine for truly ungentlemanly behaviour.” Perhaps Niven had some other proto-action-movie roles that suggest otherwise, but I’m not familiar with them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/27 "2015-06-21T22:39:07Z")
Huh, I misread the dates. I vaguely recall that my first or one of my first posts here was Bond-related. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/28 "2015-06-21T22:45:22Z")
Found it: > [@Bond's martinis](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bonds-martinis/42693/16): > > According to “The Complete James Bond Movie Encyclopedia”, by Steven Jay Rubin: > > Bond specifically asks for a vodka martini on Maximillian Largo’s yacht in “Never say Never Again”. I’ll admit, I can’t offhand think of another specific vodka martini reference. Other notable moments: > > -the mistake from “You Only Live Twice”, in which Henderson (Charles Gray) offers a martini to Bond (Connery), announcing it is “Stirred, not shaken.” Bond accepts unhesitantly. > > -when Pam Bouvier (Carey Lowell, later of Law & Order fame) orders a martini for Bond (Timothy Dalton) in “License to Kill”, she gestures the “shaken” part in a semi-obscene manner. > > As for Cantrip’s mention of the best dialogue, I’ll agree that “No, Mister Bond, I expect you to die!” is the best, but my vote for second is “That’s a Smith and Wesson, and you’ve had your six.” spoken by Connery just before shooting Professor Dent in cold blood (Dr. No). > > Another mild piece of trivia is that two James Bond villians were portrayed by actors who had also appeared as Germans in the film version of “The Longest Day.” They were Gert Frobe (Goldfinger) and Curt Jurgens (Stromburg, of “The Spy Who Loved Me”). > > One day, I’ll go through my collection of James Bond novels to find the first Fleming reference to “shaken, not stirred”. > > Bryan Ekers > Montreal The encyclopedia mentioned is the same one I can’t find at the moment to confirm Fleming’s opinion of David Niven, though in fairness, it might only be Gould’s opinion of Fleming’s opinion of Niven. Hah…“Bryan Ekers, Montreal…” I was so young. Anyway, novel-Bond was ordering shaken martinis as early as “Casino Royale.” ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/29 "2015-06-21T23:13:53Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Not only does Book Bond have egregious plot-armor, but the character basically seems aware of the fact that he is the protagonist of his own book series, and so can’t die. His plans generally boil down to him walking in the front door of the heavily guarded enemy lair, getting captured and figuring that once the bullets are done flying he’ll be fine and everyone else will be dead. And of course the movies carefully hew to reality. I look forward to your series James Bond, Accountant… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/30 "2015-06-21T23:19:15Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#): > > They have been quite enjoyable, though hopelessly dated with their depiction of women (basically as creatures totally unfit to make it in the world). True, but Bond’s predilection for disciplining, chastising and generally roughly treating the ladies is pretty much based u[pon Flemings own lifelong embrace of S & M](http://www.mhpbooks.com/the-secret-to-james-bonds-chauvinism-lies-in-ian-flemings-letters/). You read them after you learn about that fact, well it was the only way he was evet going to put such material in and get published. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/31 "2015-06-21T23:25:39Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > And of course the movies carefully hew to reality. > > I look forward to your series James Bond, Accountant… Honestly, the books show him as basically a boring analyst: rolls into the office at 10 and shuffles paperwork, then leaves at 5 for an evening alone. Rinse and repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/32 "2015-06-21T23:58:08Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#): > > Honestly, the books show him as basically a boring analyst: rolls into the office at 10 and shuffles paperwork, then leaves at 5 for an evening alone. Rinse and repeat. Yes, that’s as I remember the books. Bond works at a desk a lot of the time. IIRC, he was a hand-to-hand instructor as well, but that might have been in one of the non-Fleming books. He has a flat where he lives alone. What little description there is of the flat doesn’t make it sound particularly luxurious. Does he belong to a club or am I conflating M having a club with Bond having one? Anyway, except when he got assigned some “wet work,” book Bond didn’t seem to lead a glamorous or exciting life. Calling his life dreary might be a bit too much, but compared to movie Bond he does live like a reasonably well paid government employee, not a jet-set spy. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/33 "2015-06-22T00:05:51Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > And of course the movies carefully hew to reality. > > I look forward to your series James Bond, Accountant… Maybe James Bond, Ornithologist. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/34 "2015-06-22T01:01:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Does he belong to a club or am I conflating M having a club with Bond having one? As I recall, M invites Bond to dinner at his club in the novel _Moonraker_. It’s one of the only scenes in the books where Bond gets to show off his taste for fine food, and it’s limited to ordering the peas, because it’s spring, and they’ll probably be fresh and not out of the tin. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/35 "2015-06-22T01:04:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I found the same to be true with Perry Mason novels as well, sadly. Noooooooo! I’ve been SAVING those to read during my Declining Years, which are fast approaching! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/36 "2015-06-22T01:26:37Z")
One of the books, _From Russia With Love_, describes Bond stuck in dreary paperwork. The novel starts with several chapters of the backgrounds of Donovan Grant (the psychopathic killer working for SMERSH), Rosa Klebb (head of operations for SMERSH), Kronsteen (the chess-master operations planner for SMERSH), and SMERSH starting to put together a plan designed to seriously bitchslap the Western intelligence services, etc… Bond shows up around chapter five or six, which starts with “The soft life had got ahold of Bond and was slowly smothering him in its flabby embrace,” or something like that. Bond at this point has been stuck in London for months following his mission in America (“Diamonds are Forever”), long enough for Tiffany Case, who’d moved in with him after the events of that novel, to get tired of him and move back out, which Bond has to admit he kind of prefers - not being tied down to any one woman. Some of Bond’s paperwork activities are described, including him being on a committee and getting into a minor dustup with another member who thought intellectuals were prone to wearing their hair long and indulging in homosexuality, or some such crap (possibly alternatively, he was bored while reading a lengthy report about “philopon”, a version of meth that was becoming rampant in urban Japan - I can’t find my novels at the moment to check). In any event, the dulled reflexes of “the soft life” are implied to blame for Bond not becoming suspicious that a television salesman had been bothering his live-in housekeeper, May. The salesman is actually a Soviet agent making clandestine inquiries into Bond’s movements, confirming that he is currently in London. Also, when the story surfaces of a beautiful cipher clerk named Tatania Romanova claiming she’s distantly fallen in love with Bond and wishes to defect and bring a top-secret decoding machine with her, both M and Bond are sufficiently dulled by boredom that they jump on this bizarre opportunity instead of being appropriately cautious. Their man in Istanbul, Darko Kerim, has not been similarly dulled and maintains his active distrust, right up until he gets killed. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/37 "2015-06-22T01:36:11Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Noooooooo! I’ve been SAVING those to read during my Declining Years, which are fast approaching! Well you know, I could be wrong. Plenty of adults here seem to like 'em fine. Maybe it’s just me. I hope I haven’t poisoned the well for you, but if it turns out you don’t care for 'em after all you might want to check out the Nero Wolfe novels where the fun lies in the characterizations and the interplay between the characters. I discovered them relatively late in life and I’m glad I did. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/38 "2015-06-22T01:39:13Z")
Thanks! I read most of the Nero Wolfe novels as a teen also. Over the past few years I’ve gone back and re-read the ones from the '30s and '40s, which I consider the best ones, and they hold up just fine! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/39 "2015-06-22T01:40:53Z")
Oops, I meant they’re enjoying the Bond books fine so you might enjoy the Mason books as well. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051/40 "2015-06-22T01:50:18Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Thanks! I read most of the Nero Wolfe novels as a teen also. Over the past few years I’ve gone back and re-read the ones from the '30s and '40s, which I consider the best ones, and they hold up just fine! Then you might also like the Nero Wolfe A&E series. It’s available now on Youtube and Netflix and on DVD from Amazon. Can’t recommend it highly enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-read-flemings-james-bond-books-are-the-movies-true-to-the-books-bond-character-or-not/723051.md?page=3)