# I never realized how good the final duel was in Empire Strikes Back **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916 "2011-03-08T13:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/21 "2011-03-08T20:24:52Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > And the Yoda one in Clones is just ridiculous. You mean the Flying Chipmunk of Fury? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/22 "2011-03-08T20:53:49Z")
The other cool thing about the ESB duel is that they basically spend two movies building up to it. Through-out New Hope and ESB, you have space-knights with super-powers carrying around glowing laser swords. You know eventually two of them are going to duel with them and its going to be awesome, but aside from the brief Vader Obi-won fight, where they basically just poke at each other while exchanging banter before Obi-Won surrenders, Lucas makes you wait through 5 and a half hours worth of movie before the obvious pay-off. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/23 "2011-03-08T21:06:24Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I guess I could sort of buy it in Obiwan’s case but Vader had quite a resurgence of style for the following two. Well… as I recall Vader isn’t as such quick or even showing a great range of motion in ESB or Jedi. Don’t his hands rarely leave what would be his strikezone in baseball? Luke’s the one who’s swinging wildly and quickly, Vader is mostly blocking with the saber, never really lunges. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/24 "2011-03-08T21:25:42Z")
Oh man, the Obi-wan/Vader battle is kind of like the Yoda/Dooku situation, I don’t even like to think about it. Every single time I watch Star Wars I’m disappointed that it’s not a better fight. Damn it **Hypno-Toad** , my office mates were startled when I read “finish him” aloud and with flourish.🙂 That’s another thing, Dooku, I could almost forgive that horrible moniker if his lightsabering had been up to snuff but it _sucked._ I’m not all that into expanded universe stuff but I remember reading that Dooku’s style was more in line with fencing and that was reflected in his strange lightsaber hilt. The hilt thing made little sense to me since fencing foils aren’t curved like that but whatever. My point is, I was looking forward to seeing a visibly different fighting technique and I don’t think they really delivered on that score. When it comes to the prequels, we have the good guys double teaming the bad guys which just makes me root for the wrong team a little. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/25 "2011-03-08T21:35:08Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > You mean the Flying Chipmunk of Fury? This is more properly known as\* Frogger vs. Dracula.\* ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/26 "2011-03-09T00:46:07Z")
Personally, I think that the Yoda duel should have had his lightsabre flying around like crazy, pretty much like we saw… But Yoda himself just standing perfectly still, concentrating, and wielding it through the Force. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/27 "2011-03-09T01:14:05Z")
The real reason the Obi-Wan Vader duel sucked was because they didn’t use stunt doubles. It’s really David Prowse and Alec Guinness doing the whole thing. I thought maybe they’d add in some new shots for the Special Edition to spice the scene up a bit. I think it could be done seamlessly and nobody would complain too much as long as the essence remained the same, and they didn’t pull another switcheroo. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/28 "2011-03-09T01:29:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that the Yoda duel should have had his lightsabre flying around like crazy, pretty much like we saw… But Yoda himself just standing perfectly still, concentrating, and wielding it through the Force. I agree, and that is what I expected when I saw the film. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/29 "2011-03-09T01:32:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that the Yoda duel should have had his lightsabre flying around like crazy, pretty much like we saw… But Yoda himself just standing perfectly still, concentrating, and wielding it through the Force. No - _several_ lightsabres. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/30 "2011-03-09T01:32:50Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Vader doesn’t just beat Luke, he outclasses him. Chuck Klosterman put it best: > [@](#): > > Vader beat Luke the way Ike used to beat Tina. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/31 "2011-03-09T02:57:39Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I thought maybe they’d add in some new shots for the Special Edition to spice the scene up a bit. I think it could be done seamlessly and nobody would complain too much You’re joking, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/32 "2011-03-09T03:01:23Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > In the first half of the fight, Vader is fighting one-handed, and his swings don’t have any passion; he almost seems bored by the whole thing. “Luke, I have something to tell you. I am not left handed.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/33 "2011-03-09T03:08:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “Luke, I have something to tell you. I am not left handed.” 😛 I knew that was coming… ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/34 "2011-03-09T03:16:29Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > You’re joking, right? What people complained about was when a scene was changed to a different outcome, or was just poorly done. Nobody complained about the extra shots in the Death Star trench run, or the adjusted CG shots of the Millennium Falcon; it was only the bad CGI Jabba, or that Greedo got a shot off that riled everyone up. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/35 "2011-03-09T04:18:59Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I agree that it could have been neat to have them fight with faster movements, but a lot of the duels in the new ones just look…ridiculous, almost. What they look like is what they would look like if the prequel fights were influenced by the showy Asian style of movie fighting, as they undoubtedly were. This style pays nothing more than a passing nod to the idea that the participants are trying to kill one another, while basically comprising a series of ostentatiously choreographed and obviously co-operative high speed dance moves that bear some vague resemblance to fighting. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/36 "2011-03-09T04:35:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “Luke, I have something to tell you. I am not left handed.” 😛 No, no, it goes the other way 'round: **Luke** I know something you don’t know. **Vader** What is that? **Luke** _I_ am not left-handed! _zzwwiiiiit!_ **Vader** How about now, smartass? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/37 "2011-03-09T04:38:32Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > It’s in the last bit of the fight where Vader gets serious and decides it’s time to teach this punk a lesson, and comes out swinging with two handed strikes. And it’s in that last “serious” bit where Luke lands what looks to me to be a pretty solid strike on Vader’s shoulder complete with Vader shouting out in pain. Vader dominated but I think he was surprised by how well Luke fought. Impressively. Most impressively. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/38 "2011-03-09T04:45:39Z")
See, I always figured that what Vader and Obi Wan were doing was feeling each other out. They hadn’t faced off in years. What had Vader learned, and how had becoming a cyborg affected his abilities? Had Obi Wan lost a step due to age and rustication? Their “poking” at each other was their way of taking each others’ measure, and Obi Wan conceded because he felt that was the best way to get Luke safely off the Death Star. \ ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/39 "2011-03-09T04:51:14Z")
I’m afraid when I think about Luke fighting Vader the only image that sticks in my head is the one from RotJ when Luke kicks Vader down some stairs and Vader does this really fake end over end thing in the air. It looked really fake to me, at any rate. It’s at the beginning of [this Youtube clip.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Ynajjjzlw) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/40 "2011-03-09T05:46:27Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > And you’ve got to figure that Vader wasn’t going to have much respect for Luke’s training - where would he have gotten it from, after he killed Obiwan? You’ve got to believe that if the Emperor and Vader thought that Yoda was still around, they would have tried to track him down. > > So Luke’s known training was whatever Ben had time to give him on however long the jump to Alderan took. I just noticed something while rewatching these fight scenes on Youtube. In Empire Strikes Back at the beginning of their final duel Vader says to Luke: “Obi-wan has taught you well.” At the beginning of their final duel in RotJ, Vader again says “Obi-wan has taught you well.” Did Vader think ghost Obi-wan was training Luke the whole time? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=3)