# I never realized how good the final duel was in Empire Strikes Back **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916 "2011-03-08T13:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/41 "2011-03-09T07:13:30Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Did Vader think ghost Obi-wan was training Luke the whole time? They thought all the Jedi were dead, and were unaware that Yoda was still around. The only one they knew of still hanging around this late in the game was Obi Wan Kenobi. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/42 "2011-03-09T07:24:17Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > Lucas has said in commentary that the Obi-Wan / Vader duel at the end was _intended_ to be, literally, the weakest. That is to say, these are two very old fighters (or, perhaps one very old and one very decrepit), and that the duel was supposed to be a fight between two men who could barely physically lift their swords anymore. I can’t help but picture a George Lucas DVD commentary as basically [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJXU7EVXs2A&feature=player_detailpage#t=16s) over and over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/43 "2011-03-09T08:56:43Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > See, I always figured that what Vader and Obi Wan were doing was feeling each other out. They hadn’t faced off in years. What had Vader learned, and how had becoming a cyborg affected his abilities? Had Obi Wan lost a step due to age and rustication? Their “poking” at each other was their way of taking each others’ measure, and Obi Wan conceded because he felt that was the best way to get Luke safely off the Death Star. > > \ Continuing the fanwank… Obi Wan never intended to leave the Death Star alive. Perhaps he was already dying of some sort of desert virus and just wanted to go out like a Big Damn Hero. Even Vader suspects this when he notices his ex-tutor’s presence. “Escape is not his intention.” In the end, Kenobi just offers enough defense not to get killed until the rest of the good guys are safe. As soon as they are, he gives up and lets Darth suicide him. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/44 "2011-03-09T09:15:34Z")
More than that, he was making sure Luke witnessed his death so that he would be motivated to take up the mantle of Jedi-hood proffered and target Vader specifically in his vendetta. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/45 "2011-03-09T15:57:48Z")
I always thought that Obiwan allowed himself to die so he’d actually have more power in a non-corporeal form. Sort of how Gandalf the Grey comes back as Gandalf the White. StG ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/46 "2011-03-09T16:16:23Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > See, I always figured that what Vader and Obi Wan were doing was feeling each other out. They hadn’t faced off in years. What had Vader learned, and how had becoming a cyborg affected his abilities? Had Obi Wan lost a step due to age and rustication? Their “poking” at each other was their way of taking each others’ measure, and Obi Wan conceded because he felt that was the best way to get Luke safely off the Death Star. I have to agree here. It had been years since either of them had been in a duel with a Jedi, and had Vader even used a lightsaber in his new outfit? He probably couldn’t do all the nifty break dance moves he could in #3 since he was “More machine now than man.” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/47 "2011-03-09T16:22:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Did Vader think ghost Obi-wan was training Luke the whole time? Vader would have had no way to know that Obi-Wan hadn’t been training Luke since Luke was a little kid, and would probably expected that to have happened, once he wrapped his brain around Luke being alive. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/48 "2011-03-09T16:24:33Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Did Vader think ghost Obi-wan was training Luke the whole time? I always figured that Vader assumed that Obi-wan was training him for years on Tattoine. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/49 "2011-03-09T16:54:35Z")
Quoth **Guanolad** : > [@](#): > > What people complained about was when a scene was changed to a different outcome, or was just poorly done. Nobody complained about the extra shots in the Death Star trench run, or the adjusted CG shots of the Millennium Falcon; it was only the bad CGI Jabba, or that Greedo got a shot off that riled everyone up. While the technology existed to do this seamlessly, I don’t think it was possible for Lucas specifically, or a team working under Lucas’s micromanagement, to do it. Maybe nobody complained about the extra shots in the trench run, but they _did_ complain when little yellow rectangles showed up around the TIE fighters that never showed up before, and which Lucas said weren’t his fault because you were supposed to adjust your TVs properly before watching the movie. Or about when Luke’s color-enhanced lightsabre in the training drone scene on the Falcon turned out to be enhanced in the _wrong_ color. No, if Lucas had tried to replace the Kenobi-Vader fight with stunt doubles, he’d have managed to completely botch the attempt, and make it even worse than what we saw. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/50 "2011-03-09T16:56:19Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > What people complained about was when a scene was changed to a different outcome, or was just poorly done. Nobody complained about the extra shots in the Death Star trench run, or the adjusted CG shots of the Millennium Falcon; it was only the bad CGI Jabba, or that Greedo got a shot off that riled everyone up. Changing the Vader/Obi Wan fight to make it more “exciting” would completely change the tone of the whole thing - do you imagine you could just throw a couple of prequel-style fight moves in there and leave the essence of the thing untouched? This would be way more intrusive than having Greedo shoot first - for one, they wouldn’t have the footage, it’s Alec Guinness himself fighting, after all. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/51 "2011-03-09T17:13:43Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > They thought all the Jedi were dead, and were unaware that Yoda was still around. The only one they knew of still hanging around this late in the game was Obi Wan Kenobi. > [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I always figured that Vader assumed that Obi-wan was training him for years on Tattoine. Well, Vader never got a chance to test Luke’s training in Ep IV, but he sure got to test it in ESB. Vader handed his ass to him. So much for Obi-wan’s training. Then, in Ep VI Luke’s skills as a Jedi have obviously improved since their last fight, so he say’s “Obi-wan has taught you well.” Why didn’t he say “who’s been training you, you little brat. I killed Obi-wan and I kicked your ass last time!” ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/52 "2011-03-09T17:27:29Z")
Now I love the Obi-Wan/Darth duel in Star Wars. You have a slow,old man who keeps a slow, stronger man at bay by keeping his sword centered in Vader’s face and avoiding any showy, fancy acrobatics. Very minimal defensive movements, only what is nessesary. Loved it. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/53 "2011-03-09T17:51:36Z")
One thing about the ROTJ fight scene that always bugs me is that, while Luke is backing up the stairs, with Vader in pursuit, he crosses his legs. That is an intrisincally unstable stanch that a trained fighter would try to avoid. A good time for Vader to close. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/54 "2011-03-09T19:06:59Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > One thing about the ROTJ fight scene that always bugs me is that, while Luke is backing up the stairs, with Vader in pursuit, he crosses his legs. That is an intrisincally unstable stanch that a trained fighter would try to avoid. A good time for Vader to close. Is Vader trying to kill him here? Is this after the “perhaps she will” line? I think before that, Vader is just defending. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/55 "2011-03-09T19:17:48Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > One thing about the ROTJ fight scene that always bugs me is that, while Luke is backing up the stairs, with Vader in pursuit, he crosses his legs. That is an intrisincally unstable stanch that a trained fighter would try to avoid. A good time for Vader to close. Luke gets a brief training session on the Falcon in the first movie from Obi-Won, and then a few weeks with Yoda in ESB. Its a bit of a stretch to call him a trained fighter. I don’t think we ever see him practice fighting someone with a lightsaber. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/56 "2011-03-09T20:00:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Guanolad** :While the technology existed to do this seamlessly, I don’t think it was possible for Lucas specifically, or a team working under Lucas’s micromanagement, to do it. Maybe nobody complained about the extra shots in the trench run, but they _did_ complain when little yellow rectangles showed up around the TIE fighters that never showed up before, and which Lucas said weren’t his fault because you were supposed to adjust your TVs properly before watching the movie. Or about when Luke’s color-enhanced lightsabre in the training drone scene on the Falcon turned out to be enhanced in the _wrong_ color. No, if Lucas had tried to replace the Kenobi-Vader fight with stunt doubles, he’d have managed to completely botch the attempt, and make it even worse than what we saw. Hell, the way Lucas messed with some of the other originals, I’m half-surprised the Vader - Obi-Wan wasn’t “restored to his original vision” of a fight with a break in the middle for a dance scene, stopping to enjoy a Pepsi, Obi-Wan chatting with Vader about how Yoda is Chewy’s cousin, and then back to fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/57 "2011-03-09T20:40:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, Vader never got a chance to test Luke’s training in Ep IV, but he sure got to test it in ESB. Vader handed his ass to him. So much for Obi-wan’s training. > > Then, in Ep VI Luke’s skills as a Jedi have obviously improved since their last fight, so he say’s “Obi-wan has taught you well.” > > Why didn’t he say “who’s been training you, you little brat. I killed Obi-wan and I kicked your ass last time!” The difference between the fights in Eps V and VI aren’t Luke’s practicing, it is his maturity as a Jedi. Vader’s goal in Ep. V was to make Luke angry and thus turn him to the dark side. Luke was a lot more emotional, and so fought worse. He was much more composed in Ep. VI, even with Palpatine’s very feeble attempts to make him angry. In fact, Palpatine underestimated Luke quite a bit, which helped Luke triumph. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/58 "2011-03-09T21:05:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Maybe nobody complained about the extra shots in the trench run, but they _did_ complain when little yellow rectangles showed up around the TIE fighters that never showed up before, Actually the little rectangles WERE always there. A few years back, I popped in my old VHS (pre-Special Edition) tape just to check, and sure enough, there they were. I wouldn’t have believed it if someone had told me. As for Ben vs Vader, yeah, it was an old dude vs a cripple, but also when it comes down to it, neither was really trying. Ben was just hoping to buy Luke time to escape, and Vader, well, he was just messing with Ben as well. Remember, if the Falcon didn’t take off, they wouldn’t be able to track them to the secret rebel base. Ben was stalling, Vader was toying, and that’s where you get a less than top notch lasersword duel. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/59 "2011-03-09T21:13:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > He was much more composed in Ep. VI, even with Palpatine’s very feeble attempts to make him angry. In fact, Palpatine underestimated Luke quite a bit, which helped Luke triumph. The part that annoyed me about Palpy’s taunting is that it had the exact opposite effect that Palpy wanted. Every time Palpy gloated, “Yes, give in to your aaaanger!”, it make Luke go, “Oh, yeah, I forgot I wasn’t supposed to give in to my anger. Gotta zen.” If Palpy had just shut his mouth, Luke would have totally turned to the dark side. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/60 "2011-03-09T23:46:14Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > Changing the Vader/Obi Wan fight to make it more “exciting” would completely change the tone of the whole thing - do you imagine you could just throw a couple of prequel-style fight moves in there and leave the essence of the thing untouched? I didn’t mean big leaping off wall type moves. What I was actually hoping for was small things like the little twirl of the lightsabre that Ewan McGregor did a few times in _The Phantom Menace_. Something that suggested a personal flourish, that there was more to them than just creaky old men, and that the game was on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=4)