# I never realized how good the final duel was in Empire Strikes Back **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916 "2011-03-08T13:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/61 "2011-03-10T00:59:50Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Luke gets a brief training session on the Falcon in the first movie from Obi-Won, and then a few weeks with Yoda in ESB. Its a bit of a stretch to call him a trained fighter. > > I don’t think we ever see him practice fighting someone with a lightsaber. Well, fair enough, although I don’t think there’s any real indication of how long he spent on Degaba in EBS, but they can’t have it both ways. Either he’s a near match for Vader whose youth and passion won the day, or he’s a yokel from Tatooine. I’m not a trained fighter, but when I _did_ mess around with karate it was an early lesson. Just my personal gotcha ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/62 "2011-03-10T01:17:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The difference between the fights in Eps V and VI aren’t Luke’s practicing, it is his maturity as a Jedi. Vader’s goal in Ep. V was to make Luke angry and thus turn him to the dark side. Luke was a lot more emotional, and so fought worse. He was much more composed in Ep. VI, even with Palpatine’s very feeble attempts to make him angry. In fact, Palpatine underestimated Luke quite a bit, which helped Luke triumph. That makes sense. The more I think about it, Obi-wan teaching him how to use the Force to anticipate the practice drone’s little laser shots on the Falcon was most of what Luke needed. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/63 "2011-03-10T01:26:46Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Well, fair enough, although I don’t think there’s any real indication of how long he spent on Degaba in EBS It doesn’t matter how long he was on Dagobah, because Yoda never instructed him in the use of a lightsaber. Go watch ESB again- Yoda doesn’t even have a lightsaber on his belt (neither does Pappy - they’re strong enough in the Force that they’re beyond the use of lightsabers). And the lightsaber lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke on the Falcon? That isn’t a lightsaber lesson at all. If you got the impression that Obi-Wan was training Luke in the use of a lightsaber you weren’t paying much attention. > [@outlierrn](#): > > but they can’t have it both ways. Sure they can. You just pointed out that Luke wasn’t swordfighting like a pro. Because he wasn’t a pro. All his skill came from his strength in the Force. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/64 "2011-03-10T02:16:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The part that annoyed me about Palpy’s taunting is that it had the exact opposite effect that Palpy wanted. Every time Palpy gloated, “Yes, give in to your aaaanger!”, it make Luke go, “Oh, yeah, I forgot I wasn’t supposed to give in to my anger. Gotta zen.” > > If Palpy had just shut his mouth, Luke would have totally turned to the dark side. I don’t think so. Indeed, it’s by giving in to his anger that Luke defeats Vader. What separates Luke from his father - or Palpatine, or a lot of people in the SW universe - is his disinterest in having power. Luke shows not the slightest trace of ambition to power, ever. Note that this amazing, near-invincible supersoldier is still a middle-level officer in Empire Strikes Back, not at all involved in any major decision-making. (By comparison, Lando Calrissian goes from being an asshole to a general in between ESB and ROTJ.) The story of many characters in the Star Wars universe is the assumption of power, and it’s quite literally all that the Sith live for; Luke seems not to want anything for himself except personal excellence. He expresses no interest in power, money, or even personal relationships. He’s not a perfect person - he’s impulsive, impatient, overestimates his own abilities, and, at the beginning, whiny. But he never seeks power. Luke’s fundamental strength, the thing that makes you like him, is his bravery, but what makes him different from Vader is that Luke has both physical and **moral** courage. From the first frame of Star Wars to the last of Jedi, Luke never shies from doing the right thing, even if it puts him in harm’s way; he errs sometimes in impulsiveness, but never in his dedication to doing what is right. Anakin/Vader was physically brave but morally cowardly. The cleverness behind the final duel in ROTJ (in my estimation, at least; Lucas, who’s as subtle as a nuclear detonation, might not see what he himself created) is that Palpatine is absolutely right; anger and hatred are immensely useful. Unleashing your anger clearly allows the person to better channel the Force, at least for some purposes. Where Luke differs is in his moral compass. He uses his anger to defeat Vader (and, in the moment, in defense of Leia) but when he sees that he could use his fury to assume more power he shies away… not because of the use of anger, but because the power is not what he sees as being moral. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/65 "2011-03-10T02:21:21Z")
Am I misremembering? I thought Palpatine had Luke utterly at his mercy in the RotJ (twisting him this way and that with his fingertip lightning bolts) and it was only Daddy Vader’s intervention that saved the lad. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/66 "2011-03-10T02:29:09Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Am I misremembering? I thought Palpatine had Luke utterly at his mercy in the RotJ (twisting him this way and that with his fingertip lightning bolts) and it was only Daddy Vader’s intervention that saved the lad. Has anyone said otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/67 "2011-03-10T02:43:54Z")
Well, I might have misread RickJay’s post above mine just now, but it sounded as if Luke had emerged triumphant or something and what I remember is he didn’t. Did he actually defeat Vader before Palpatine started twisting him to and fro? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/68 "2011-03-10T02:47:11Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It doesn’t matter how long he was on Dagobah, because Yoda never instructed him in the use of a lightsaber. Go watch ESB again- Yoda doesn’t even have a lightsaber on his belt (neither does Pappy - they’re strong enough in the Force that they’re beyond the use of lightsabers). And the lightsaber lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke on the Falcon? That isn’t a lightsaber lesson at all. If you got the impression that Obi-Wan was training Luke in the use of a lightsaber you weren’t paying much attention. > > Sure they can. You just pointed out that Luke wasn’t swordfighting like a pro. Because he wasn’t a pro. All his skill came from his strength in the Force. Dial it back a bit sparky. I know the movies just fine. My complaint is not a swordfighting one per se, but a footwork one that applies to all close quarter combat. It’s just a weak choreography moment that the director didn’t notice, or let slide. It doesn’t matter whether Yoda taught him lightsabering off camea or he picked it up through force-mosis, he fights quite well in ROTJ, that’s what makes it noticable. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/69 "2011-03-10T02:49:41Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Well, I might have misread RickJay’s post above mine just now, but it sounded as if Luke had emerged triumphant or something and what I remember is he didn’t. Did he actually defeat Vader before Palpatine started twisting him to and fro? Yes, Vader was helpless before Luke, Palpy tells him to strike Vader down and take his place, and Luke says bite me. _Then_ Palpy unleashes the thunder. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/70 "2011-03-10T04:23:45Z")
I think my all time favorite Star Wars quote is from that scene. [Darth Vader Voice]Impressive[/DVV] ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/71 "2011-03-10T04:40:34Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Dial it back a bit sparky. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/72 "2011-03-10T04:43:03Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I think my all time favorite Star Wars quote is from that scene. > > [Darth Vader Voice]Impressive[/DVV] One of my favorite, too. I love putting a little bass in my voice and telling someone I think what they just did was “most impressive”. Not everyone gets it, but it’s worth it for those who do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/73 "2011-03-10T04:50:12Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Well, I might have misread RickJay’s post above mine just now, but it sounded as if Luke had emerged triumphant or something and what I remember is he didn’t. Did he actually defeat Vader before Palpatine started twisting him to and fro? Yeah, he’d just soundly defeated Vader, and hacked off the hand he was holding his lightsaber in. There was basically nothing Vader could have done to stop Luke from killing him at that point - he was entirely at Luke’s mercy. It wasn’t until Luke refused to kill Vader, and dropped his own lightsaber, that the Emperor did his bug zapper impression. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/74 "2011-03-10T05:19:29Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > What people complained about was when a scene was changed to a different outcome, or was just poorly done. Nobody complained about the extra shots in the Death Star trench run, or the adjusted CG shots of the Millennium Falcon; it was only the bad CGI Jabba, or that Greedo got a shot off that riled everyone up. People still complain about adding “A New Hope” to the title. Any change gets the fanboys riled. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/75 "2011-03-10T10:13:32Z")
[OT]I’m still pissed when I read on [cracked.com](http://cracked.com) that Prowse got royally shafted by Lucas, not even inviting him to several reunions… [/OT] ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/76 "2011-03-10T10:36:04Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > [OT]I’m still pissed when I read on [cracked.com](http://cracked.com) that Prowse got royally shafted by Lucas, not even inviting him to several reunions… [/OT] He hid the truth from Prowse regarding Vader’s infamous reveal at the end of ESB to prevent the truth from leaking. Seems to have been a good call, considering Prowse went and told everyone and their mother that Obi-Wan killed Luke’s father (the dummy line in the script). Prowse, of course, had a case of wounded pride when the insider info he’d been telling everyone turned out to be incorrect. He probably felt like he’d been made a fool of. Good riddance. He wore a suit, you never hear his voice and his face is covered with a mask. The small amount of acting he did with his hands, etc, while good, could have been pulled off by anyone. He was completely replaceable. He was hired for his height. I’m a Lucas-basher but everything I’ve heard about the relationship between him and Prowse has painted the latter as a major asshole. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/77 "2011-03-10T16:36:59Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Actually the little rectangles WERE always there. A few years back, I popped in my old VHS (pre-Special Edition) tape just to check, and sure enough, there they were. I wouldn’t have believed it if someone had told me. > > As for Ben vs Vader, yeah, it was an old dude vs a cripple, but also when it comes down to it, neither was really trying. Ben was just hoping to buy Luke time to escape, and Vader, well, he was just messing with Ben as well. Remember, if the Falcon didn’t take off, they wouldn’t be able to track them to the secret rebel base. Ben was stalling, Vader was toying, and that’s where you get a less than top notch lasersword duel. I don’t know if Vader was toying. The last time Vader faced Obi-Wan, he lost his legs and got seared near some lava. I would be tentative, too. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/78 "2011-03-10T17:13:08Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I don’t know if Vader was toying. The last time Vader faced Obi-Wan, he lost his legs and got seared near some lava. I would be tentative, too. True, but Vader had also had 20 more years with Palpatine, and was likely even more confident in his abilities than he was the first time. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/79 "2011-03-10T17:29:35Z")
My fanwank for the Obi-wan/Vader rematch was that neither of these old guys was really up for the flashy backflips and stuff, but there was probably a pretty impressive Force struggle going on invisibly, as they felt each other out after all these years. Lucas just didn’t bother indicating to us that’s what was going on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/80 "2011-03-10T17:32:15Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > True, but Vader had also had 20 more years with Palpatine, and was likely even more confident in his abilities than he was the first time. I think they mention that he’s spent most of the intervening years hunting down whats left of the Jedi, as well. So presumably he’s gotten better at it, while Obi-Wons just been hanging out in the desert getting old. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=5)