# I never realized how good the final duel was in Empire Strikes Back **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916 "2011-03-08T13:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/81 "2011-03-10T17:59:40Z")
Vader has no idea what Obi-Wan has been doing the last twenty years, though. He could be thinking “Why is he holding back? He used to run along the ceiling lopping heads off. What trick does he have up his sleve?”. Later, in episode IV, Obi-Wan is able to talk in Luke’s ear. In episode V, he shows up as a type 9 free floating appartion. Has this been explained? Is it knowledge of the force that lets him cheat death? Obi-Wan manifests some force power that Vader couldn’t (yet). (One of Palpatines inducments to Annakin was the cheating death trick, to be used on Padme.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/82 "2011-03-10T18:00:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, he’d just soundly defeated Vader, and hacked off the hand he was holding his lightsaber in. There was basically nothing Vader could have done to stop Luke from killing him at that point - he was entirely at Luke’s mercy. It wasn’t until Luke refused to kill Vader, and dropped his own lightsaber, that the Emperor did his bug zapper impression. Exactly. And if Luke had given into his anger and killed Vader, he either would have gone over to the dark side or been toast. In the short run the Dark Side seems more powerful, but in the long run the Good Side is. The reason I like this final scene so much that Lucas illustrates this very well. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/83 "2011-03-10T18:02:32Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > As for Ben vs Vader, yeah, it was an old dude vs a cripple, but also when it comes down to it, neither was really trying. Ben was just hoping to buy Luke time to escape, and Vader, well, he was just messing with Ben as well. Remember, if the Falcon didn’t take off, they wouldn’t be able to track them to the secret rebel base. Ben was stalling, Vader was toying, and that’s where you get a less than top notch lasersword duel. That’s pretty much how I always saw their fight, even as a kid. I always thought they were just squaring off, then Ben quit before they started the real fighting. Kind of like how two boxers might take a couple half-hearted jabs at the start before they really get busy. So I never thought of it as a pathetic “fight” as much as a stare down. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/84 "2011-03-10T18:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Later, in episode IV, Obi-Wan is able to talk in Luke’s ear. In episode V, he shows up as a type 9 free floating appartion. Has this been explained? You might have missed it, but it’s near the end of _Revenge of the Sith_ that Qui-Gon figures out the blue ghost trick. So Vader was unfamiliar with it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/85 "2011-03-10T18:03:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Exactly. And if Luke had given into his anger and killed Vader, he either would have gone over to the dark side or been toast. In the short run the Dark Side seems more powerful, but in the long run the Good Side is. The reason I like this final scene so much that Lucas illustrates this very well. Not well enough for dense people like me. Luke refused to kill Vader, displaying the “good” side. Paplatine was close to killing him (Luke). Only Vader’s intervention saved Luke, not some awesome display of force knowledge. If Vader had passed out (due to the shock of losing a hand), what would the “good” side of the force have done for Luke? The ability to come back as a ghost and haunt Palpatines sleeping quarters? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/86 "2011-03-10T18:04:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You might have missed it, but it’s near the end of _Revenge of the Sith_ that Qui-Gon figures out the blue ghost trick. So Vader was unfamiliar with it. Your right. I missed it. Episode III? You gave me an excuse to go watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/87 "2011-03-10T18:25:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In the short run the Dark Side seems more powerful, but in the long run the Good Side is. Don’t be silly. Evil is cool, and Good is dumb. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/88 "2011-03-10T18:56:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t think so. Indeed, it’s by giving in to his anger that Luke defeats Vader. > > What separates Luke from his father - or Palpatine, or a lot of people in the SW universe - is his disinterest in having power. Luke shows not the slightest trace of ambition to power, ever. Note that this amazing, near-invincible supersoldier is still a middle-level officer in Empire Strikes Back, not at all involved in any major decision-making. (By comparison, Lando Calrissian goes from being an asshole to a general in between ESB and ROTJ.) The story of many characters in the Star Wars universe is the assumption of power, and it’s quite literally all that the Sith live for; Luke seems not to want anything for himself except personal excellence. He expresses no interest in power, money, or even personal relationships. He’s not a perfect person - he’s impulsive, impatient, overestimates his own abilities, and, at the beginning, whiny. But he never seeks power. > > Luke’s fundamental strength, the thing that makes you like him, is his bravery, but what makes him different from Vader is that Luke has both physical and **moral** courage. From the first frame of Star Wars to the last of Jedi, Luke never shies from doing the right thing, even if it puts him in harm’s way; he errs sometimes in impulsiveness, but never in his dedication to doing what is right. Anakin/Vader was physically brave but morally cowardly. > > The cleverness behind the final duel in ROTJ (in my estimation, at least; Lucas, who’s as subtle as a nuclear detonation, might not see what he himself created) is that Palpatine is absolutely right; anger and hatred are immensely useful. Unleashing your anger clearly allows the person to better channel the Force, at least for some purposes. Where Luke differs is in his moral compass. He uses his anger to defeat Vader (and, in the moment, in defense of Leia) but when he sees that he could use his fury to assume more power he shies away… not because of the use of anger, but because the power is not what he sees as being moral. I’ve always felt that way about the final duel, that Luke was able to channel anger in a positive way in spite of his teachers’ warnings and Palpatine’s temptation. I’m really impressed by your analysis of Luke’s character - you actually made me like him more. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/89 "2011-03-10T19:08:10Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Huh? Well, I assumed you need to watch it again because you weren’t paying much attention was delivered in full snark mode. Maybe I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/90 "2011-03-10T21:10:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You might have missed it, but it’s near the end of _Revenge of the Sith_ that Qui-Gon figures out the blue ghost trick. So Vader was unfamiliar with it. Wait a minute… you wooshed me, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/91 "2011-03-10T21:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Not well enough for dense people like me. > > Luke refused to kill Vader, displaying the “good” side. Paplatine was close to killing him (Luke). Only Vader’s intervention saved Luke, not some awesome display of force knowledge. > > If Vader had passed out (due to the shock of losing a hand), what would the “good” side of the force have done for Luke? The ability to come back as a ghost and haunt Palpatines sleeping quarters? That’s the whole point: Vader was able (in more than one sense) to save Luke precisely because Luke had embraced the Light Side by sparing Vader. It’s things like that that are the reason why Good wins in the long run. EDIT: > [@](#): > > Wait a minute… you wooshed me, didn’t you? Not knowingly. It’s a bit subtle and easy to miss, but it’s there. Someone-or-other tells someone-else-or-other (Yoda tells Obi-Wan?) that an old friend would like to speak with him, and blue ghost Qui-Gonn appears, to someone-else-or-other’s joy. Unless I’m manufacturing memories again… I hate it when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/92 "2011-03-10T21:47:18Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Not well enough for dense people like me. > > Luke refused to kill Vader, displaying the “good” side. Paplatine was close to killing him (Luke). Only Vader’s intervention saved Luke, not some awesome display of force knowledge. > > If Vader had passed out (due to the shock of losing a hand), what would the “good” side of the force have done for Luke? The ability to come back as a ghost and haunt Palpatines sleeping quarters? if you remember, Luke predicted he was going to die. Being the best Jedi does not involve being the roughest, toughest, force user. That was Anakin’s tragic flaw (one of them, anyway.) I suspect Luke’s plan was to divert Vader and the Emperor long enough to get the screen down and have the Death Star destroyed. That he saved his father and escaped intact was just lagniappe. It is very similar to the situation in the beginning of the movie. Luke didn’t rescue Han and dispose of Jabba by a frontal attack, but by walking into the lion’s den and becoming a prisoner. I doubt the original plan involved the sand barge - the light saber in R2 would have come in handy in many other circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/93 "2011-03-10T21:54:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > EDIT: Not knowingly. It’s a bit subtle and easy to miss, but it’s there. Someone-or-other tells someone-else-or-other (Yoda tells Obi-Wan?) that an old friend would like to speak with him, and blue ghost Qui-Gonn appears, to someone-else-or-other’s joy. Unless I’m manufacturing memories again… I hate it when that happens. At the end of _Revenge of the Sith_, Yoda sends Obi-Wan back to Tatooine and with a knowing nod says something like “an old friend” would continue training Obi-Wan, at which point Ewan McGregor puts on a ridiculously joyous face and practically squeals “Qui-Gonn!” like a little girl saying “You got me a _pony_!” I don’t believe Qui-Gonn appeared in blue-ghosty form though. I think he was supposed to but Liam Neeson didn’t want to film it. Prior to that, when Anakin was slaughtering the sand people, Yoda heard Qui-Gonn’s disembodied voice yell “No, Anakin! No!” and that’s the first time that Yoda had heard a dead Jedi’s voice. I _read_ a version in which Yoda was surprised by this and started to concentrate of the voice, and it was the start of the Jedi ghost-evolution. In the actual movie, all they have is Yoda looking alarmed (“feeling” that Anakin was getting all sand-people-choppy), then hearing Qui-Gonn’s voice “No, Anakin! No!”, and you see Yoda go: “Hmm…” There was no other explanation or exposition about hearin Qui-Gonn’s voice in that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/94 "2011-03-10T22:05:46Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > Well I wouldn’t say Vader outclassed him… only inasmuch as Vader kind of “cheated”. I mean, you’re swordfighting and also hitting the guy in the back of the head with toasters and stuff at the same time. > > While you could say there’s no “rules”, if we’re supposed to believe Obi Wan’s speech in New Hope describing a nobler time and a gentleman’s weapon and all that, Vader could be argued to be using bad form here. But by then, Vader has given up the Jedi ways and embraced the Sith path. So all that cheating was perfectly fair for evil. Plus, at first Vader only engages one-handed and doesn’t have to do much with that hand at that. It’s only toward the end of that fight that Luke is able to step up his game and bring out Vader’s anger, and then Vader actually commits to fighting Luke. Course, with the prequels, Lucas crapped all over Obi-Wan’s description of the era of light sabers and Jedi, but hey. > [@Lobohan](#): > > This is more properly known as\* Frogger vs. Dracula.\* Snerk > [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > Continuing the fanwank… > > Obi Wan never intended to leave the Death Star alive. Perhaps he was already dying of some sort of desert virus and just wanted to go out like a Big Damn Hero. > > Even Vader suspects this when he notices his ex-tutor’s presence. “Escape is not his intention.” > > In the end, Kenobi just offers enough defense not to get killed until the rest of the good guys are safe. As soon as they are, he gives up and lets Darth suicide him. > [@StGermain](#): > > I always thought that Obiwan allowed himself to die so he’d actually have more power in a non-corporeal form. Sort of how Gandalf the Grey comes back as Gandalf the White. Because “Strike me down, and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” Yeah, I’ll be able to manifest as a glowy image to the 2 people that actually knew me! So there! > [@Lemur866](#): > > The part that annoyed me about Palpy’s taunting is that it had the exact opposite effect that Palpy wanted. Every time Palpy gloated, “Yes, give in to your aaaanger!”, it make Luke go, “Oh, yeah, I forgot I wasn’t supposed to give in to my anger. Gotta zen.” > > If Palpy had just shut his mouth, Luke would have totally turned to the dark side. Yep, totally. > [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t think so. Indeed, it’s by giving in to his anger that Luke defeats Vader. > > [snip] > > The cleverness behind the final duel in ROTJ (in my estimation, at least; Lucas, who’s as subtle as a nuclear detonation, might not see what he himself created) is that Palpatine is absolutely right; anger and hatred are immensely useful. Unleashing your anger clearly allows the person to better channel the Force, at least for some purposes. Where Luke differs is in his moral compass. He uses his anger to defeat Vader (and, in the moment, in defense of Leia) but when he sees that he could use his fury to assume more power he shies away… not because of the use of anger, but because the power is not what he sees as being moral. Interesting observations and a different perspective. To some extent, Luke’s anger did allow him to unleash his skill, which lead him to victory over Vader. But it was recognizing that the battle was won and being able to tame his rage that was the victory of light over dark. Too often giving in to the rage and anger leads to loss of control, and that is what the Jedi try to avoid. That is why they preach against it. Being able to channel but contain it is far harder. It’s not letting the rage flow that is hard, it’s stopping it before it goes too far that’s the real trick. > [@mlees](#): > > Luke refused to kill Vader, displaying the “good” side. Paplatine was close to killing him (Luke). Only Vader’s intervention saved Luke, not some awesome display of force knowledge. But it was Luke’s good side that lead to the redemption of Vader. > [@](#): > > If Vader had passed out (due to the shock of losing a hand), what would the “good” side of the force have done for Luke? The ability to come back as a ghost and haunt Palpatines sleeping quarters? Nobody ever said that Good can’t lose. Palpatine is just way more powerful than Luke, or even that Luke is aware is possible. Yoda would have been able to handle Palpy’s electric hands, but Luke was never prepared for that kind of force kick, and was largely incapacitated. With more training, he could learn to focus, deflect, absorb it. The short run, Palpy would have fried Luke. But Luke’s faith in his father was the magic ace up his sleeve. Palpy had lightning, Luke had love. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/95 "2011-03-10T22:11:43Z")
Ok, thanks, all! Time to go digest what I read. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/96 "2011-03-10T22:22:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Note that this amazing, near-invincible supersoldier [Vader] is still a middle-level officer in Empire Strikes Back, not at all involved in any major decision-making. Are you sure about that characterization? I don’t think Vader qualifies as a mid-level officer. I think he more stands outside the military chain of command. He’s a special agent, directly responsible to the Emperor himself, acting on behalf of the Emperor for specific goals. He can direct fleets when necessary, and disciplines officers regularly, but is not officially in chain-of-command, as we see in Star Wars, where he defers to the authority of Admiral craggy-face. That’s why he can hire bounty hunters, take a fleet to Hoth, or personally pilot a Tie Fighter in the first Death Star assault. When he shows up at the Second Death Star in RotJ, he is bringing the Emperor’s personal message - the Right Hand of the Emperor - and that is why he gets the royal treatment, and why when he prods them about schedule it has a chilling effect. Why he can go to the surface of Endor to personally collect Luke. It isn’t his job to be an officer in the chain of command, it’s his job to run special errands and instill fear. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/97 "2011-03-10T22:48:27Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Well, I assumed you need to watch it again because you weren’t paying much attention was delivered in full snark mode. Maybe I was wrong. Reading it again I agree it seems I was over the top. But I don’t recall getting worked up as I was writing it. 😛 It was poor word choice on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/98 "2011-03-10T23:01:33Z")
**Irishman** , I’m pretty sure **RickJay** was talking about Luke in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/99 "2011-03-11T03:30:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Are you sure about that characterization? I don’t think Vader qualifies as a mid-level officer. You completely misunderstood my post, or got lost in there somewhere. I was referring to Luke Skywalker, not Darth Vader. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916/100 "2011-03-11T04:03:44Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Because “Strike me down, and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” Yeah, I’ll be able to manifest as a glowy image to the 2 people that actually knew me! So there! Based on Obi-Wan in the prequels, he wasn’t lying to Vader. The dude tripped and fell somewhere in every prequel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-realized-how-good-the-final-duel-was-in-empire-strikes-back/573916.md?page=6)