# I never would have guessed that's how you spell it **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 15, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754 "2015-02-15T22:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/121 "2015-02-24T05:16:42Z")
Rats, I may have screwed up slightly. Sio- should probably be /∫i/, since the O is only there because the Ch is broad and it needs a broad vowel lead in. So change the above to reflect that. I always find the vowels trickier than the consonants. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/122 "2015-02-24T05:43:05Z")
Thanks, Dr. Drake, for that very thorough explanation! I hadn’t thought about the similar lenition of /f/ in Hispanic Latin. That all makes more sense now. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/123 "2015-02-24T23:17:10Z")
Hey, **Dr. Drake** , I need you to tell me how “ **cwthree** ” is pronounced. I would think with all those consonants in a row, it’s Irish, but the ‘ **cw** ’ in the beginning makes me lean towards Welsh… (This is where you say, “Go away, kid, you bother me.”) 😃 **bump** never came back to tell us how “Hrncir” is pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/124 "2015-02-25T01:06:23Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > **bump** never came back to tell us how “Hrncir” is pronounced. “Hrncir” is most likely pronounced “hurn-cheer” or “hurn-tseer” depending on which Slavic language it’s derived from (I leave it to **Dr. Drake** to put that into proper IPA notation). **cwthree** cannot be pronounced by mortal men. The man (or woman) who speaks it aloud will draw the wrath of God and suffer hangnails. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/125 "2015-02-25T01:30:04Z")
From what I can tell, it’s Czech (and maybe Slovak), spelled “Hrnčíř.” č is ch as in cheese. I don’t know how to explain the ř in English but it’s a “[Voiced alveolar raised non-sonorant trill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill#Voiced_alveolar_raised_non-sonorant_trill).” ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/126 "2015-02-25T01:49:56Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > \ …but it’s a “[Voiced alveolar raised non-sonorant trill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill#Voiced_alveolar_raised_non-sonorant_trill).” And we all know how painful that can be. GOOD NIGHT! DRIVE SAFELY! ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/127 "2015-02-25T03:00:14Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Do you mean she pronounces it uh-LEE-SEE-uh as oppose to uh-LEE- **SHE** -uh? Because I’m an American and I have never in my life heard anyone say the name as uh-LISH-ya. Or does she pronounce it uh-LEE-see-uh? (i.e. no emphasis on “see”) ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/128 "2015-02-26T11:32:32Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Oh, Lord, I can try. > > Siochfhradha consists of the following letters: > > S + i + o + ch + fh + r + a + dh + a. > > Fh is a special case, because the lenited form of F is silent. (Historically, it’s what happened to F in Hispanic Latin, too, which is why _fumus_, “smoke,” becomes _humo_, “smoke,” with no initial consonant. Both medieval Irish and Spanish probably had a phase where it was /h/ like English H, but it’s just silent now.) > > So that leaves S + i + o + ch + r + a + dh + a. > > Broad Dh is a /γ/ sound, a bit like the French uvular R. It’s actually the voiced form of Ch /x/, like German _Bach_ or Scottish _loch_. By “voiced” I mean that whatever you do to turn K into G, do that to /x/ and it turns into /γ/. Between two broad unstressed vowels, though, Irish /aγa/ collapses to /u/ in many dialects. > > So now we have S + i + o + /x/ + r + /u/ > > The s + i + o combination is the same as Siobhan: sho, or in IPA, /∫o/ > > So that’s /∫/ + o + /x/ + r + /u/. > > In many dialects, /x/ is weakly articulated (not said with quite so much spit) in medial position, so it just becomes /h/. > > Now it’s /∫/ + o + /h/ + r + /u/. > > To recap: > > Si = /∫/ Sh > o = o > ch = /h/ h > fh is there for historical, etymological reasons. Silent. > r = r > adha = u. That’s a really well explained answer - bravo! This bit: Between two broad unstressed vowels, though, Irish /aγa/ collapses to /u/ in many dialects Also makes sense when you think of “agua” as Spanish (as in Spain - don’t know about elsewhere) speakers say it, because the consonant turns into a semi-glide which could easily disappear over time. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754/129 "2015-02-28T23:13:17Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] Between two broad unstressed vowels, though, Irish /aγa/ collapses to /u/ in many dialects [/QUOTE] Digging way, way back to the Farsi classes I took as an undergrad, I recall that something similar happens in that language as well. Long /a/ (“a” as in “father”) turns into /u/ in many dialects or regional accents. _Nan_ (“bread”) and _chane_ (“chin”), for example, become _nun_ and _chune_. I wonder if a similar process happened in Farsi? Perhaps the sound that is now written with _'alef_ and pronounced /a/ or /u/ was originally an /aa/ sound? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-never-would-have-guessed-thats-how-you-spell-it/712754.md?page=6)