# I nominate this Englishman to be a Hero of the SDMB! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695 "2013-01-10T01:18:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/1 "2013-01-10T01:18:16Z")
FREE SPEECH FOREVER! > **[France's censorship demands to Twitter are more dangerous than 'hate speech'...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/02/free-speech-twitter-france)** > > Glenn Greenwald: Few ideas have done as much damage throughout history as empowering the government to criminalize opinions it dislikes > [@](#): > > But there are no views that I hold which I think are so sacred, so objectively superior, that I would want the state to bar any challenge to them and put in prison those who express dissent. How do people get so convinced of their own infallibility that they want to arrogate to themselves the power not merely to decree which views are wrong, but to use the force of the state to suppress those views and punish people for expressing them? > > The history of human knowledge is nothing more than the realization that yesterday’s pieties are actually shameful errors. It is constantly the case that human beings of the prior generation enshrined a belief as objectively, unchallengably true which the current generation came to see as wildly irrational or worse. All of the most cherished human dogmas - deemed so true and undeniable that dissent should be barred by the force of law - have been subsequently debunked, or at least discredited. > > How do you get yourself to believe that you’re exempt from this evolutionary process, that you reside so far above it that your ideas are entitled to be shielded from contradiction upon pain of imprisonment? The amount of self-regard required for that is staggering to me. Here is a voice of liberty, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/2 "2013-01-10T06:05:36Z")
Are you under the impression that [Glenn Greenwald](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Greenwald) is English? He is an American who lives in Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/3 "2013-01-10T06:54:29Z")
He does have an English name. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/4 "2013-01-10T23:33:21Z")
Oh. Well, it’s his impassioned defense of liberty that counts. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/5 "2013-01-11T21:59:33Z")
I hold that the acknowledgement that the Holocaust was a real thing to be far and away superior to any opposition, so much that I would happily jail and punish anyone who denies it. In Europe, this view is the law in some states, and I think it should be, because of the grievous harm it produces and holocaust denial is our best test of mental illness that we have available ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/6 "2013-01-11T22:12:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I hold that the acknowledgement that the Holocaust was a real thing to be far and away superior to any opposition, so much that I would happily jail and punish anyone who denies it. I have no doubt that the Holocaust was real, but I would much rather have neighbors who denied it, than neighbors who would happily jail anyone who is wrong about a historical fact, no matter which fact. Holocaust denial is usually associated with anti-Semitism, and punishing overt acts of racism or discrimination is a separate issue, but IMO there is nothing any more intrinsically evil about Holocaust denial, than, say, celebrating Columbus Day in complete ignorance of the way he treated the native people he “discovered,” or wanting the likes of Condi Rice to run for President. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/7 "2013-01-11T23:19:19Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I have no doubt that the Holocaust was real, but I would much rather have neighbors who denied it, than neighbors who would happily jail anyone who is wrong about a historical fact, no matter which fact. > > Holocaust denial is usually associated with anti-Semitism, and punishing overt acts of racism or discrimination is a separate issue, but IMO there is nothing any more intrinsically evil about Holocaust denial, than, say, celebrating Columbus Day in complete ignorance of the way he treated the native people he “discovered,” or wanting the likes of Condi Rice to run for President. Not “a” historical fact, just THIS historical fact. It will not convince you, but this is about the only historical fact I would jail anyone for. So you are not in any danger, ever, as long as you do not become a holocaust denier. Now if you are one of those people who just must do something expressly because its prohibited, then I cannot help you. I am not one of those people. If someone told me I’d be in jail if I denied the holocaust, but no other denial would be worthy of jail time, I would shake that person’s hand and thank them for making the world a better place and never deny the holocaust. Those fucking people who do will get no sympathy from me if they are thrown in jail ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/8 "2013-01-11T23:42:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not “a” historical fact, just THIS historical fact. > > It will not convince you, but this is about the only historical fact I would jail anyone for. So you are not in any danger, ever, as long as you do not become a holocaust denier. You’ve convinced me. Everybody can pick one historical fact as his favorite, and can jail anyone who doesn’t believe it. I’m not very original, so I’m going to do what the Church used to do, and say that the one historical fact I’m going to punish people for denying is that Jesus was resurrected after three days in the tomb, to save us from our sins. Guess who denies that? ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/9 "2013-01-11T23:48:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > If someone told me I’d be in jail if I denied the holocaust, but no other denial would be worthy of jail time, I would shake that person’s hand and thank them for making the world a better place and never deny the holocaust. But you’re not a holocaust denier. Having dealt with a fair share of such people: a law against holocaust denial would _help_ the deniers. It gives them martyrs, motivates their sympathizers, and breeds theories of conspiracies and coverups. And the smarter ones learn to skirt the rules, stay within the letter of the law while continuing to sow doubt and incite hatred, now disguised as righteous dissent. Instead of explicit holocaust denial, you get protests of bias, censorship, academic distortion, and suppression; and those protests have the same aim (and often the same effect) as holocaust denial did. Because holocaust denial is not an end, it’s a means; and there are plenty of other means available to that same end. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/10 "2013-01-11T23:51:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not “a” historical fact, just THIS historical fact. > > It will not convince you, but this is about the only historical fact I would jail anyone for. So you are not in any danger, ever, as long as you do not become a holocaust denier. Now if you are one of those people who just must do something expressly because its prohibited, then I cannot help you. I am not one of those people. If someone told me I’d be in jail if I denied the holocaust, but no other denial would be worthy of jail time, I would shake that person’s hand and thank them for making the world a better place and never deny the holocaust. Those fucking people who do will get no sympathy from me if they are thrown in jail Your thinking is far more dangerous than any holocaust denier. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/11 "2013-01-12T00:05:15Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Your thinking is far more dangerous than any holocaust denier. +1. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/12 "2013-01-12T02:25:59Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > +1. - another one. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/13 "2013-01-12T04:02:50Z")
I’ve never seen a Holocaust denier who wasn’t revealed to be a racist idiot within minutes of launching into their spiel. Laws aren’t necessary to suppress them. It’s not like thousands are flocking to their cause. The Holocaust happened. Period. A denier of that fact only looks stupid or evil. You might as well deny that there was slavery in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-nominate-this-englishman-to-be-a-hero-of-the-sdmb/646695/14 "2013-01-12T04:12:55Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You might as well deny that there was slavery in the U.S. OK, maybe it happened, but [it could have been prevented](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/gun-appreciation-day-leader-if-blacks-had-guns).