# I oppose continued GOP efforts to subvert American elections **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 27, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668 "2018-07-27T12:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/41 "2018-07-30T10:53:49Z")
The question I have about the paper backup is this: I never actually got to check it to make sure it aligned with what I voted. (At the time, I wasn’t worried about it, as I assumed that security on these machines was top notch, that the government had the entire source code and kept the machines clean, and other stuff I now know isn’t a thing.) So how do we know the paper trail hasn’t been tampered with as well? Just tamper occasionally. I really don’t see the problem with the old mechanical devices that punched a card for you. They were easy enough to figure out, if you didn’t want to use the old pencil/bubble tech. All of these could be sure to not have been tampered with, and then, you could allow a hand recount if the automated account is in question. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/42 "2018-07-30T11:05:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > (At the time, I wasn’t worried about it, as I assumed that security on these machines was top notch, that the government had the entire source code and kept the machines clean, and other stuff I now know isn’t a thing.) It’s just the opposite. The private companies which build voting machine keep the source code secret, even from government, since it’s their intellectual property. When researchers capable of disassembling the code in ROMs attempt to buy a voting machine to check its integrity, they are often thwarted. (That the governments who buy such machines don’t welcome such integrity tests is … baffling?) AFAIK nobody has definitely proved that voting machines have been rigged to affect an electoral outcome, but there is so much circumstantial evidence, so much opportunity for cheating, and so little reason to use these abominations in the first place, _ **that I continue to find the acceptance of these machines baffling.** _ I assume that the 38% think “Well, if anybody’s cheating it’s my team anyway, so Goody Goody!”, while the 62% will get around to this after more pressing issues like forcing Trevor Noah and all America’s other comics to apologize. . ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/43 "2018-07-30T11:50:20Z")
I think everyone’s viewing this meddling wrong, sure it might be a problem now but there’s a potentially lucrative opportunity. So we assume that Russia has been paying off lots of Republicans so it’s their party now…clearly this demonstrates that the US is producing a valuable commodity for export: US Political Influence. Now you might need to break from a 2-party system to fully leverage this but you should start by making overtures to the EU, there’s a nice unbought Democratic party that they might like, maybe wave the Greens at Canada. If you make a few more parties, imagine the boost to the economy, all that foreign money coming in, lots of jobs provided in the running for government industry. And all the meddling would possibly balance out and you’d end up with actually fair elections. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/44 "2018-07-30T16:52:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Hacking of electronic voting machines is the “elephant in the room,” and has probably already swung some U.S. elections A lot of the problem with investigating election fraud is that the other side pushes things like this. We saw it with Diebold, and we see it now. It distracts from investigating real problems, if any. > [@](#): > > California currently has 17 more electoral votes than Texas. I’ll bet a bottle of _Vieux Pontarlier_ absinthe that after the rigged 2020 census this advantage drops to 13 electoral votes or less. What will you do when this doesn’t happen? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/45 "2018-07-30T16:59:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What will you do when this doesn’t happen? > > Regards, > Shodan Presumably send someone that bottle of absinthe, which will make their heart grow fonder. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/46 "2018-07-30T17:05:20Z")
Let it be noted that friend **Shodan** innocently provided the straight line set-up and cannot be held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/47 "2018-07-30T17:26:36Z")
**Shodan** , how do you know that tampering with voting machines isn’t a real problem? It’s a lot more worrisome than all of the problems that Republicans worry about, because those are detectable, and have been proven to be very, very small. Voter machine tampering, however, is known to be possible, undetectable with many current machines, and could all by itself swing an election (even a not particularly close one). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/48 "2018-07-30T18:31:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Shodan** , how do you know that tampering with voting machines isn’t a real problem? How do you know there aren’t invisible birds flying over your head? **septimus** claims it “probably” already happened. There is no evidence that it did. It’s not a question of how I know it’s not a real problem - it’s a question of how you know it is a real problem. That’s the point of my remark about the bet (and to my playing straight man to **BobLibDem** ). If it’s real, let’s see the evidence. If no evidence is forthcoming, and still the conspiracy theories fly, nothing can be done or needs to be done. Conspiracy theories are immune to evidence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/49 "2018-07-30T20:08:39Z")
😕 The bet is defined in relation to the new apportionment of the House of Representatives, which I think will be settled by Congress in 2021 and must be in place for the 2022 election. This should involve very well-defined numbers, and has nothing to do with new “evidence” or conspiracy theories. **Thus, every vowel and every consonant in the most recent post is a _non sequitur_!** I suppose Trump’s junta could refuse to accept the new census or to re-apportion. In that case many of us will have concerns greater than who wins the bottle of absinthe. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/50 "2018-07-30T20:29:22Z")
So you think the 2020 census is being rigged and subverted, and that voting machine hacks have probably swung some elections, but you don’t think it is a conspiracy. Oooookay then. Good luck with the invisible birds. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/51 "2018-07-30T21:09:27Z")
We know absolutely 100% that it’s a problem. No, we don’t know whether any votes were actually changed… and that’s what the problem is. If the system were any good, we would know definitively that no votes were changed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/52 "2018-07-30T21:34:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Election meddling by the Russians is a problem. Voter intimidation is a problem. Hacking of electronic voting machines is the “elephant in the room,” and has probably already swung some U.S. elections > > [Last week the House of Reps voted on party lines to cease providing states with funds for election security.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/house-gop-refuses-to-renew-election-security-funding-as-democrats-fume-over-russian-meddling/2018/07/18/20761f88-8abb-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?utm_term=.b584fabe2eb1) For those of us who are not American, can you explain why election security is the responsibility of the Federal government and not the State governments? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/53 "2018-07-30T22:10:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > For those of us who are not American, can you explain why election security is the responsibility of the Federal government and not the State governments? It does seem silly, and I mentioned the Congress vote primarily as an example of how strongly the GOP opposes election integrity. However be aware that (1) elections for federal office are subject to federal law; (2) Taxpayer revolts and GOP malice have left many state governments severely underfunded; (3) 49 out of the states (all but Vermont) have constitutional (45) or statutory (4) requirements that budget be balanced – _ **they can only spend what they raise in taxes** _. This is in contrast to the federal government, which borrows like a horny fiend turned loose in a fun-house. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/54 "2018-07-30T22:14:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How do you know there aren’t invisible birds flying over your head? > > **septimus** claims it “probably” already happened. There is no evidence that it did. It’s not a question of how I know it’s not a real problem - it’s a question of how you know it is a real problem. > > That’s the point of my remark about the bet (and to my playing straight man to **BobLibDem** ). If it’s real, let’s see the evidence. If no evidence is forthcoming, and still the conspiracy theories fly, nothing can be done or needs to be done. Conspiracy theories are immune to evidence. > > Regards, > Shodan :rolleyes: Remind me: did and do you support Voter ID laws? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/55 "2018-07-31T08:17:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It does seem silly… I’m sorry, but none of that answers my question. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/56 "2019-02-14T17:45:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Election meddling by the Russians is a problem. Voter intimidation is a problem. Hacking of electronic voting machines is the “elephant in the room,” and has probably already swung some U.S. elections > > [Last week the House of Reps voted on party lines to cease providing states with funds for election security.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/house-gop-refuses-to-renew-election-security-funding-as-democrats-fume-over-russian-meddling/2018/07/18/20761f88-8abb-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html?utm_term=.b584fabe2eb1) > > The National Security Council considers election security important enough to hold a special meeting on the topic. Guess who will come out of his stupor to chair that meeting? Fuckface von Clownstick himself, the man who has asserted that the Russians helped Hillary, if anyone, in 2016. > > **Fuckface and his team are already planning to subvert the 2020 census, intimidating Hispanics in California (though not Texas!) and hoping they hide from the count. This will impact not only appropriations but voting power in the House of Reps and electoral college for the next decade. California currently has 17 more electoral votes than Texas. I’ll bet a bottle of _Vieux Pontarlier_ absinthe that after the rigged 2020 census this advantage drops to 13 electoral votes or less.** [The criminals are proceeding with plans to reduce California’s funding and electoral power by about 6% despite losing the House.](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-census-court-20190214-story.html) > [@](#): > > The Supreme Court meets behind closed doors Friday to weigh a question that could shape the political power of California for the decade ahead. > > At issue is the Trump administration’s plan to ask all households for the first time since 1950 whether occupants are U.S. citizens. > > State officials and Latino activists have been sounding the alarm, arguing that this single change to next year’s census could have a broad and unforeseen impact. > … > If the Trump White House wanted to deal a political blow to California, “the most effective way to do it would be to promote an intentional undercount of the state in the 2020 census,” said Arturo Vargas, chief executive of the National Assn. of Elected and Appointed Latino Officials in Los Angeles. “And I think that’s precisely what’s behind the adding of this question.” > … > If the justices agree to hear the case, Department of Commerce vs. New York, they will bypass the appellate courts and schedule a special argument in late April or May. They will review a scalding 277-page opinion handed down last month by U.S. District Judge Jesse Furman in New York who stopped just short of accusing Ross of lying to hide his partisan motives. He detailed how the Commerce secretary had overruled the government’s statisticians and demographers who had spent a decade preparing for the census and had warned it was a mistake to add such a charged and untested question. > > When questioned on Capitol Hill, Ross told lawmakers he had acted “solely” in response to a request from the Justice Department. But emails released during the litigation showed Ross himself had prompted the Justice Department to make the request. The judge also noted that early in 2017, Ross spoke with then-White House chief strategist Steve Bannon and Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach about the issue. They “discussed the potential effect on ‘congressional apportionment’ of adding ‘one simple question’ to the census,” he wrote. Furman ruled the addition of the new question violated the Administrative Procedures Act because it was “arbitrary and capricious.” > > The Constitution calls for an “actual enumeration” of the population every 10 years and says representatives “shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state.” This has been understood to mean that all residents are counted equally in the census, regardless of their citizenship status. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/57 "2019-02-14T17:52:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [The criminals are proceeding with plans to reduce California’s funding and electoral power by about 6% despite losing the House.](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-census-court-20190214-story.html) Why should incentivizing illegal immigration be rewarded? If California can ignore the law why can’t others? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/58 "2019-02-14T18:01:28Z")
I’m unclear on why your post said “(though not Texas!)”. The article you linked to specifically mentioned Texas as another state likely to be affected: > [@](#): > > Officials in California, New York and 17 other Democratic-leaning states say neither justification makes sense. They argue that adding the citizenship question is likely to yield incomplete and inaccurate data because millions of immigrant families will refuse to respond, leading to a severe undercount in areas like Southern California and South Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/59 "2019-02-14T18:50:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why should incentivizing illegal immigration be rewarded? If California can ignore the law why can’t others? The point of the census is not to incentivize on de-incentivise anything. It is a fact finding mission whose purpose is the non-partisan goal of getting an accurate count of the number of residents in a state. Using it as a political hammer to influence policy one way or another is anti-democratic. Note the count is of residents legal or not\* so having a question that makes a portion of the residents fear prosecution if they return the form is contrary to this purpose. - If you object to this interpretation perhaps you would be in favor of a compromise. Say, counting them as 3/5ths of a person. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668/60 "2019-02-14T19:25:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you think the 2020 census is being rigged and subverted, and that voting machine hacks have probably swung some elections, but you don’t think it is a conspiracy. Oooookay then. > > Good luck with the invisible birds. > > Regards, > Shodan Let’s say that you and I make a bet on a coin toss. I flip the coin, look at it, but do not show it you, and then declare that I have won the bet. Is it a conspiracy theory to demand that I show you the results of the coin toss? Even if we’ve never made a bet before? Because as far as I am concerned, that is what we have here: No ability to verify the truth of something that is very easily tampered with. And people reducing the amount of money that might be spent to make this either more verifiable or less easily tampered with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-oppose-continued-gop-efforts-to-subvert-american-elections/818668.md?page=4)